Welcome to The Online Counseling Podcast. Exploring the practice of counseling through technology. Here’s your host, Clay Cockrell.
Clay Cockrell: Hello and welcome to The Online Counseling Podcast. I’m Clay Cockrell. It’s an incredibly gorgeous day here in New York and, as always, you will probably hear the sounds of New York during this recording. It just can’t be helped. But we are very happy that you are joining us. This is episode 6 and it’s exciting here. We just went live with our first five episodes, and already we’re getting great feedback. People seem to enjoy peeking inside the private practice of people who are doing this type of work, who are taking their gifts and talents—their practice online and reaching a global audience. And we’re all learning something. I know I am by speaking with each one, and today is no exception. I got to speak with Julie Hanks. Dr. Julie Hanks is a force to be reckoned with. She owns her own group practice. She is a media personality, a nationally recognized relationship expert, and all around great person. And we got a chance to talk about her consultation and helping other therapists improve their private practice, how they can interact with the media in a positive and effective way – something that I needed to learn. But she was a gracious, gracious guest, and I don’t want to go into too much because I think I did a little intro when I was talking with her, so I won’t make you listen to it twice. But we had a great time, and hope you learn something. So, enjoy the show.
All right. Welcome to the next session of The Online Counseling Podcast. Today I am absolutely thrilled to have as a guest, is Dr. Julie Hanks, who is a PhD in marriage and family counseling. But she is so much more than that. She is a wife, mother of four. She’s a singer-songwriter, I’ve read on her bio. She is a media contributor seen, just to name a few though, Wall Street Journal and TLC, Fox, Cosmo, Parenting magazine. And with a thriving private practice of her own, she is probably the only coach out there for therapists who are building their practices to learn how to interact with the media. And she really is a consultant for us as we interact with the media and grow our practices. So there’s a lot of stuff we want to learn from here. Dr. Julie Hanks, welcome to the show.
Dr. Julie Hanks: Thank you so much, Clay. This is exciting, and fun. Fun stuff to talk about.
Clay. Yeah. And we had just a brief chat before but tell me a little bit about your practice and some of your consultation to those of us who might be looking to grow our practices.
Dr. Hanks: Yeah, sure. So 13 years ago, I started a solo practice in Salt Lake City, Utah. And I had a vision of collecting like-minded people eventually. I just had my third child and so, you know, just wanted to start small. And over that time I also felt really strongly that I need to get media and social media skills. And I wasn’t really sure why, but as my practice grew—so in 13 years I go from solo practice to three locations and roughly 20 therapist providers.
Clay: Wow.
Dr. Hanks: Yeah. And all see for service so we don’t have any insurance contracts or anything. And apparently that’s hard to do, because people had started coming to me and going, “How did you do that? Because we’re having a hard time building a solo practice of any kind without getting on insurance panels.” And I realized the thing that differentiated my practice was that I was actively building an online presence, creating content, and then creating a media presence. And then tying all of that together. And that made it easy for people to find us, get a feel for what we’re about as a clinic, and then choose us. And if someone’s already chosen you as a provider, they’re more likely to pay out of pocket, because they already have a relationship with you. You don’t know about the relationship. They have an attachment to you based on what they’ve seen, what they’ve read. Blog articles, your social media posts, all those kind of things. So I would love to talk more about that. How do you make it easy for potential clients to find you.
Clark: Yeah. So they get to know your voice, your thoughts on a wide range of issues from your blog, and therefore that relationship is created. They’re drawn into you, right?
Dr. Hanks: Right. And you also come up in the search engine. You know, you want to be on that first page, you want to be at the top. And the more content that you’re creating that speaks to your ideal client, the more likely they will find you. And especially if you’re looking for clients online and you’re in a state that allows for crossing of state lines—therapy or they haven’t cracked down on that. You want to be able to find people—you want to make it easy for them to find you and come to you. And the way that we’ve done it at my clinic is just that: content creation, social media presence, and media presence.
Clark: Yeah. And 13 years—
Dr. Hanks: And also speaking in the community, too. Face to face time.
Clark: Right. But doing this for over 13 years, you were there at the very beginning and learning about SEO and Google and Google AdWords, I imagine you’ve seen a lot of change in that amount of time.
Dr. Hanks: Oh, yes. A lot. And when I started, I had a web page with the one page—it was a one-page website. And I was one of the first therapists—so I’m an early technology adopter and early internet user for therapists. And now everybody has a website, right? So as an early adopter, it allowed me to be kind of learning as I go and riding that wave of information that is now out there and sorting through it, and then figuring out how to send my message and reach people online. Google is our number one referral source. And that’s for an actual physical practice. But if you’re doing therapy online, I mean it’s even that much more important to make it easy for people to find you and your services, and choose you, and know that it’s a good match.
Clark: Right. I mean that’s the world that you’re operating in.
Dr. Hanks: Right.
Clark: And it sounds like you have learned, like I did early on, is that having some kind of media coverage is really internet gold. So, what was that first time like for you? How did you get your first media toes wet?
Dr. Hanks: You know I just started putting out there locally, “Hey! I would love to start doing TV or…”—just putting out there. And I know people who are in the TV world or radio and things like that. But I started using—not using in an abusive way, but like using my relationships to benefit mutually and say, “Hey!” So I actually got hired on to host and produce a weekly local TV show. It almost killed me. It was so much work, and so little money. But it was baptism by fire into the world of TV. And what I realized is what makes a good guest. Because I started noticing, “Oh, I will never have that person again,” or “Oh, I want to make them a regular,” or—and what is it. And then that was a short-lived stint. But what I learned from it was how to be an ideal guest. How to make reporters’ jobs easier. How to make the host’s job easier. How to maximize that. And so that has really helped me since then. And that was about probably eight years ago since then. How to be the dream guest for radio, TV, print, where people will come back to you over and over again. And so that experience was really helpful.
Clark: Yes. Baptism by fire I would imagine would be the exact phrase for that. Your own television show. Wow.
Dr. Hanks: Yeah. It was a daily show and I was in-charge of the Monday show. Does that make sense?
Clark: Yes, yes.
Dr. Hanks: I thought, “Why am I doing this?” But what I learned has been invaluable. And then another thing that has really—it was a game changer, was Help A Reporter Out service. So, HARO.
Clark: H-A-R-O. Help A Reporter Out. It’s great service.
Dr. Hanks: helpareporter.com I believe is the website. I just consistently respond to those, and have had really, really good—it’s actually not that great of a response rate when I look at how many pitches I’ve sent. But I’ve sent so many that I’ve gotten a lot, and then the people continue to contact me.
Clark: Well, I’ve had a tip about that, because I also I respond to The HARO as frequently as I can. And with the amount of time I spend on it, it doesn’t necessary always—or at least wasn’t helpful until someone said you essentially want to write the article for the reporter, to answer it in a way that they can just lift it off of the email and put it in their article. And then if you don’t hear back from them, essentially you’ve got a blog post, because you’ve written about depression in the holidays, or some other thing. If you never hear back, you’ll at least have written something.
Dr. Hanks: You are content creating. Yes. That’s one of the things I teach in my Rock The Media School for Therapists. One of the weeks is about responding to—how to interact with reporters and journalists, and make them love you and come back to you over and over again.
Clark: Good. And that brings up—I do want to talk to you about this. You are really essentially people that are media-shy and walking them through a process through a six-week course, right?
Dr. Hanks: Right, right.
Clark: Tell us about that.
Dr. Hanks: Yeah. So I just ran a first cohort, and it was so fun. And it’s just been—I feel like a momma hen or something. I’m just, “Oh my gosh!” I’m so thrilled when people are posting in the Facebook—we have a private Facebook group where we post reports and things like that, even though the course is over for that group. But it’s just so fun. They’ve had quotes in Wall Street Journal, in Time, have their own blogs on Huffington Post or on Daily Parents and—anyway, I’ve talked them and walked through step by step how to write pitches, how to respond, how to maximize media interviews, how to prepare for media interviews. All of that stuff. It’s just step by step. So if anybody’s interested, it’s rockthemediaschool.com. You can get more information, and I have a second cohort starting up January 16th, and it works.
Clark: Sounds like it.
Dr. Hanks: I’m relieved that it works.
Clark: We’ll put that information in the show notes. So this is an online course. You can be anywhere in the world to take this, right?
Dr. Hanks: Yes. And we actually had a participant in Holland. That was really, really fun. So international—yeah she was an acupuncturist from Holland. It was all health professions, not just mental health.
Clark: Okay. Good to know.
Dr. Hanks: Yeah. We had massage therapists, music therapists, a lot of mental health therapists, but there was a wide range. But the principles apply. And basically I download in six weeks into your repertoire what I’ve learned over the past eight years.
Clark: Wow. Okay. And as we mentioned earlier, I may be a new client of that as of my recent media attention.
Dr. Hanks: Yay!
Clark: So, we’ll certainly put all the information in the show notes for that. So tell me, because you are a consultant not just with media, but my understanding is for therapists who want to grow their practice, to learn how to have a presence online. To have—just to grow their practices. Talk to me about your client base. Are these people who are just starting out, or are they—or I have an established practice or a part-time practice and I want to grow it to the next level. Do you work across all spectrums?
Dr. Hanks: I do. Usually the people that I work with at least have already started and have their practice up and going. So they either want to transition from part-time practice and leave their full-time employment jobs to full-time practice, or they have a practice and they want to add additional clinicians. Or they have additional clinicians and they want to be more profitable. So those are the folks that tend to be a good fit. Or they have—they really are successful in their practice, and then they want to take it to the next level in terms of building their online platform. Getting out there maybe just so they can get the word out about their new product, or e-course or book. Those kind of things.
Clark: Okay. So, it’s from several different angles, then. And certainly media’s going to be a part of it. But also I’m assuming the business end of being entrepreneurial and running a practice.
Dr. Hanks: And how you structure that. And really people at any stage of practice come to me and say, “How can I get cash pay clients? I’m done with managed care. I’m done with…” And I’m like, “Okay. That’s what I’ve done, so I’ll show you how.”
Clark: Yeah, and I hear that all the time, is that people are frightened to let go of managed care. They hate it, but they’re really frightened to let go of it.
Dr. Hanks: Like a sad relationship. So I’ve blogged about this. My blog, it’s privatepracticetoolbox.net. And I blog about that and I call it breaking up. And it’s like it’s a bad relationship that you can’t—you know it’s unhealthy but you’re too scared that—but what if no one else wants me after this? So, I help people wean off of that. I have a really good plan for how to do that. So it alleviates some of the anxiety and you can do it over time so you’re not just you know, breaking it off and never talking again.
Clark: So you’re saying that there is hope. It can be done. I mean you’ve done it with three different locations, 20 therapists working for you. It can be done.
Dr. Hanks: Yes, it can be done. And guess what, you can do better therapy, because you can do the therapy that the client needs, instead of having someone else dictate it. You know I did start out, when I was a solo practitioner, with getting on managed care panels because that’s what everybody did. That’s how you build a client base. Yellow page ads and getting on managed care. So, after a few years I realized I am doing more paperwork and hoop jumping than I’m doing therapy, and that’s not why I got into this field. And then I came up across a couple of ethical issues, and one of them was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Like, I’m done. I’m done. Where I received a referral for a client—a child in crisis who had been sexually assaulted, and did the assessment and realized the mother had actually blown it out of proportion. The child didn’t have any symptoms that I could diagnose. And so I was faced with, do I diagnose a child with something they don’t have so I can get paid, or do I do free therapy? And I just—I said, I’m out. I am not playing this game. And I also prefer to do longer term therapy. So which you can’t really do in a managed care situation.
Clark: Absolutely not.
Dr. Hanks: And I was afraid to make that jump, and my husband was even more afraid. He’s a CTA businessman. He’s like, “Oh my gosh.” And guess what happened?
Clark: What?
Dr. Hanks: Nothing. Like, I kept growing. And what I learned, Clay, was the value of perceived value. What happened was people thought, “Oh my gosh. You must be really if you don’t take insurance. I need a sane therapist, right? But, wow, you charge a lot. You must be really good. I want to see you.”
Clark: Yes. Yes. And there—
Dr. Hanks: And I was blown away. I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that that would happen.
Clark: And I felt that they are more invested in their own recovery, in their own growth because they’ve got skin in the game.
Dr. Hanks: And they have a lot of skin in the game. As a social worker– so I have my PhD in marriage and family therapy, but my license [00:20:29 inaudible] and Master’s are in clinical social work. For a social worker to only work with free for service clients, I mean that’s kind of not okay, right?
Clark: Right.
Dr. Hanks: But I’ve what I’ve found is that it brings in clients who value therapy. And they’re not all millionaires. I mean, none of them are. But school teachers who really value therapy, and who someone strongly recommended my clinic. Or, “I’ve been following you online for five years, and I choose you.” So, it’s actually isn’t as exclusive as it sounds. And then we also have done a lot training, and training graduate students. And we offer significantly reduced fee services for—and so that’s like the social worker in me—we are providing significantly reduced fee services for people who really aren’t in a position, even if they do value it to pay more. And then we speak and do our community service through speaking, and writing, and media education kinds of things, too.
Clark: So you’re able to reach across the spectrum socio-economically, and still have an income to support yourself.
Dr. Hanks: Right. And I don’t see clients anymore. I retired almost a year ago.
Clark: And strictly now working with Rock The Media School, and your consultation with therapists and health professionals.
Dr. Hanks: Right. And writing—I have a national self-help book coming out next year. It’s allowed me to go back to school and get my PhD, which I just graduated in May of this year.
Clark: Oh, congratulations.
Dr. Hanks: Thank you, thank you. And just be involved in other kinds of projects that I want to do. Content creation, music. Building an online presence and a media presence has really helped my practice grow to the point where it doesn’t rely on me to be there doing therapy. And I’ve been in the field for 20 years and I just thought, I’m ready to do other things and I can make a bigger difference if I train, consistently train, graduate students and other therapists to do good work. It multiplies, me times twenty. I mean that’s way helping a lot more people in our communities than I can do by myself.
Clark: And it just sounds like it was a natural progression for you, is to learn it yourself, and now teach it to others.
Dr. Hanks: Right. And that’s kind of my– I have a mentor heart, you know. I just, I love helping people get what they want, and being successful in no matter what it is. Whether it’s as a therapist in their life, whether it’s consulting clients building a practice. Whether it’s my therapists that work with me—so helping them identify and find their ideal client. That’s what really brings me a lot of joy.
Clark: And it sounds like you’re doing quite well with it. But in that many of our listeners are drawn to this podcast because they are doing some distance counseling. Do you work with professionals who are taking their practice online to do counseling via webcam?
Sr. Hanks: Yes, but not primarily. And here is—it’s funny because people—it’s very hard. It’s a lot harder than you think to build an online clientele. And people have been trying on and off. Like I started an online therapy business, gosh it was early 2000. And obviously it was a partnership that didn’t work out. But people get really excited about it, and then it’s kind of like, “Oh.” It’s harder than people think. So, I have helped people use that as an additional service to their in-person practice. That’s where I have more experience. Rather than building an entirely virtual practice. I have not worked with anybody who’s done that.
Clark: Okay. So it’s kind of creating a balance. This has brought extra income off to the side, but not totally virtual.
Dr. Hanks: Right, right. And I have yet to see someone who has done that as their sole source of income.
Clark: Okay. All right.
Dr. Hanks: If anybody out there has, I would love to talk with you and learn from you, because people get excited about it. Like, “Oh, everything’s happening online.” And there’s something about therapy that people want to actually be with you, too. Or at least a lot of people do. So, that’s my few cents.
Clark: Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that it’s learning how to find those that need that distance in the counseling. We’re getting a lot of people that are expats living in a country where they don’t have an English-speaking professional near them. But to grow that as your entire practice, there are definitely some challenges to it.
Dr. Hanks: Yeah. And the professions are way behind on the recommendations and ethical issues, and laws and rules regarding distance therapy. And so that has also made a lot of different professions really hesitant to do it, because of legal and ethical issues that might arise because they’re not clearly defined in lot of states. So that’s been another barrier that makes it hard. But I think it’s entirely doable.
Clark: Yeah, and I think it is something that is common, and hopefully soon because there’s a lot of value to be able to connect with people that are just at a distance.
Dr. Hanks: Right, right. Or just new moms who it’s just a pain to get childcare and travel for 30 minutes, and then whatever. People who have a disability of some kind that makes it difficult. And there are a lot of needs there, rural areas. Yeah. I think it’s a much needed service, and I’m excited for the mental health professions to get it together and kind of come up with some specific guidelines, and for states to get specific so people really know what the boundaries are, and to let go of that fear of, “Oh, I don’t want to get in trouble.”
Clark: Right, right. Well, I want to be cognizant of your time. But I thought maybe if you could give us, from your Rock The Media course, maybe one tip. Not to give everything away, but maybe whet the appetite of somebody listening. Maybe one thing. We’ve talked about HARO. Is there something that you might throw out there that might help someone?
Dr. Hanks: Oh, let’s see. I think it’s a little bit more general, but it also applies to media. Really, really crucial to identify who your ideal client is. Not just demographics but also what they value, what they’re looking for, intangible qualities of people that you want to work with. And the more clear you are about that, the easier it is for you to focus your media, and your social media, and your content creation, and your website to reach those people. And mental health professionals are so scared to get specific because they think, oh my gosh, it’s going to cut out all these people. And I just have to say trust me, get specific and you’ll get variety no matter what. You’ll get a variety. But if you’re not specific, you won’t get anyone.
Clark: Right. And I understand the fear. I had the same thing. If I say I’m only working with parents of adolescents, ADHD, then everybody else is not going to come and see me, which is just not the case.
Dr. Hanks: Right, right. I have one of my colleagues that works with me at my clinic. She is a registered play therapy supervisor. She’s very well-known in the play therapy world. And 50% of her case files are adults, because she’s a really good therapist, and people seek her out. And she has a variety of clients. And you just have to trust me. Get really specific about who you want to reach. And then that informs which media outlets, which social media platforms to focus on, what content to focus on creating. And so that’s kind of a first week. We really get clear about who you want to reach, and what you’re big message is. What do you have to tell the world, and how can we tell it in a powerful way.
Clark: Absolutely. That’s a good tip to end on, then.
Dr. Hanks: Thank you.
Clark: Thank you so much. As with so many people—as I’m doing more and more of these podcasts, I could spend hours and just pick your brain and learn from you. But thank you so much for coming on the podcast. This is Dr. Julie Hanks. You can find her at drjuliehanks.com. We’re going to have all these in the show notes, about Rock The Media and the privatepracticetoolbox.net so that you can learn so much more about her. So, thanks again for joining us, and we hope to hear you next time. Thanks.
Dr. Hanks: Thanks, bye.