Episode 56 – NousTalk with founder Martin Perry

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Hello, and welcome to the Online Counseling Podcast. I hope everyone had a great holiday season and has started their new year off with a bang. I love the New Year.


CC: So to start off the year with a bang, my interview today is with Martin Perry. He is the founder of NousTalk. This is a new online platform for online counseling. It’s built specifically for online therapists, and it’s incredibly robust. I’ve been using it for the past several weeks. I don’t think I can go back to any of my previous platforms. It’s just so easy, and it flat out works. It’s HIPAA compliant. You can do groups. Well, let’s let Martin describe it, but I’m keeping today’s intro pretty short because we have a lot to cover, and the interview ran just a little long. It’s about 40 minutes instead of the usual 30, but there was just so much to talk about. So I hope you like it.


CC: Hello, and welcome to the interview portion of the Online Counseling Podcast. I am really excited to talk with our guest today, Martin Perry of NousTalk. Martin, thank you for joining us.


Martin Perry: Thank you, Clay. It’s a pleasure to be here today.


CC: Now, I just wanna make sure that I got the pronunciation of this. It’s spelled N-O-U-S Talk, and we pronounce it NousTalk.


MP: Correct, yes.


CC: Okay.


MP: There’s a little bit behind that Nous, of course. For those that took a little bit of French, or know some French, Nous is the French word for “us”, but it also, it’s from the Greek actually, and that was one of the reasons why we selected this word to reflect and combine it with “talk” based on the CBT, mostly mental health therapists are using that methodology. So we kinda combined talk with the nous from the Greek, which means mind, understanding, and reasoning. So that plus talk was the mash-up with the two, actually. So that’s how we arrived to that name.


CC: I love it. So now, Martin what is your involvement, what’s your position at NousTalk?


MP: I’m actually the founder of the company.


CC: Okay. And how long have you been around?


MP: So we’ve been around… We’re a fairly new company, a little less than two years. I do have a co-founder, a CTO, and he’s been responsible for the technical side of things, and building our platform and our entire stack. I’ve been looking after the other side of the business, where from the compliance perspective, governance perspective, the client side, the onboarding, and all of the business side of things, so that’s our kind of collaboration.


CC: Okay. And I have to say, I’ve been using the platform for the last couple of weeks, maybe a month now, and I just love it. But tell me, what’s the history behind this? Why did you decide, the market needed a platform for this? And I get also a sense that this was particularly built for mental health professionals. So tell me a little bit about some of the history of why bring this to market?


MP: Yes, that’s a great question. And there was a lot that went into it, because it’s many, many years of both, I guess, from a personal perspective, family members. I have a daughter that went University and suffered some various anxiety and depression, and so that was one thing that had contributed to this solution. I had a nephew, I had a lot of family members, seniors and so on, and just trying to help my extended family members over the last probably decade or so, in various capacities. I was an executor to my late sister’s estate, and she had two young children that were university-age and went through a number of different things. And I just found it very, very difficult, from the client side, to access, the accessibility to mental health, and distance, and different ages, seniors not being able to travel that easily to perhaps a face-to-face visit. And millennials today also being online, basically their entire lives are online and being able to access that. And then I’ve come from a technology background, so bringing technology to this seemed to be there… If there should be a better way.


CC: There should be a better way.


MP: So I took a deep dive a few years ago, and I went to not only… I experienced it firsthand. But I wanted to go one step deeper, and so I went and spoke to clinicians, therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists, and wondering why aren’t they adopting telemedicine. And I probably interviewed over 100 different clinicians over an extended period of time, and at the same time I was interviewing clients and patients on the other side and understanding what do they want? So there was this convergence of the two. And I guess, answering, I got a lot of feedback. And I started to understand the problem, both from the clinician perspective, why the adoption was a little bit slower than with one would have expected since telemedicine has been around for over a decade or more in various uses, but it was very expensive, it was cumbersome, it wasn’t easy.


MP: The patient side, the client side, they didn’t have the technology, the bandwidth, and all kinds of issues like that. Downloading software, it was all very difficult. And the poor clinician, they were trying to support their clients. It’s difficult, 20 minutes into a session where they’re still having problems to download a piece of software, or connectivity, or what have you. So there was that particular side from the clinician, issues from the clinician side. And then, of course, the patient side, life is changing in urban areas, traffic, two income families, all those kind of things, were contributing to time pressures from the client perspective. So we started to look at telemedicine, why is this not working? So this was kind of the genesis of both sides, so that we brought these things together. And on top of that, we discovered that from a legislative perspective, both in all kinds of jurisdictions, today I’m based in Canada, but I would say probably 60% of our clients are in the US, and I spend half of my time here and half the time in US.


MP: And so insurance issues were a big stumbling block, friction point for clinicians. It wasn’t really accepted from the insurance side of things. Licensure in the US, in particular, because 50 states, 50 different licenses, it’s a little bit different in Canada. So all these kind of things were compounding on some of the issues and the pressures of easier and quicker adoption. But luckily, I would say probably in the last two years, we’re having a perfect storm, and I guess in the positive way, where legislations being accelerated now to address the mental health needs, both the clinicians and the patients. And of course, there’s a limited supply of… There are not enough of you, Clay, around right now. I think the demand is outstripping the providers capability of handling this.


CC: Absolutely. Absolutely.


MP: Kind of the perfect storm in that area. So various states have made some adjustments in allowing, let’s say, Alaska for instance, where there’s only about one or two clinicians per hundred thousand there, versus a state of California or State of New York that has a significantly higher availability and clinicians. So they’ve been relaxing things where certain clinicians that are licensed in another state can now provide telemedicine to some of these other states.


CC: Really? Okay, that’s interesting.


MP: A lot of these things, and I believe it’s about 23 states that have adopted some of these things with very low clinicians to population ratio. So it’s giving the accessibility. So I said, “We gotta find a better way to make accessibility and reach for the clinicians, to help them meet the needs out there.” And on top of all that, we’ve had this kind of layering of awareness campaigns and PR campaigns that have done a lot to bring the issue to the forefront and to the awareness side of things, where, unfortunately, the clinicians that are faced with dealing with that demand all of a sudden are completely overwhelmed, and the tools that they have are not really appropriate for them to handle that. And so that was a long story to some of the genesis and some of the ideas that came towards creating the solution for the clinician.


CC: And I think it’s fascinating that, as an entrepreneur, a creator, that you thought that there was a problem out there, and you asked. You went to the professionals and people in the field and said, “What are your struggles? What are your problems?” And then learn from them to create something. Instead of just handing someone an answer to a problem, you went and figured out what the problem was, and then created the answer. I think that’s brilliant. One of the things I know my listeners have gotten their ears a piqued, is when you said these 23 states that are beginning to relax some of their licensure requirements, do you have a list or some information on that that maybe we could share?


MP: Well, I don’t have them right in front of me, but I can share that and I’m happy if your listeners wanted to reach out to me, or I can do that through you, Clay, I could provide the… There’s some very, very good content available, and it gives it a state-by-state, kinda of state of the union, if you will, of the state of mental health and the practices of clinicians and licensure in each state, and how that’s changing. So it’s dynamic right now is, and it’s fantastic. So that’s kind of back to the perfect storm in a positive way, that people are recognizing it all the way and passing proactive legislation to adopt technology to help them solve some of those issues.


CC: Yeah, absolutely. So let’s talk about the platform. And I love that every time I talk with you about this, you call it “the solution”. And now I’ve adopted that language, of this is a solution to so many of the issues that I face on a daily basis, and many of the listeners as being online therapist. Let’s talk about how NousTalk is different than other platforms out there and how you distinguish yourself.


MP: Well, that’s a great question, and it’s probably gonna take me a couple more than one… a couple of sentences to answer that. And I guess it comes back to all the research that we did when we spoke to clinicians, we spoke to patients, and then we laid it down on with the legislation. They HIPAA, Canada, we have something very, very similar. And most jurisdictions today are adopting various rules and regulations to help protect both the client and you, as practitioners out there, with technology moving very quickly. So one of the things we did is, under the rules, we really tried to really understand what HIPAA meant, and the impact it had on you, as practitioners. Because that’s one of the key things, at the end of the day, of adoption. If you’re comfortable with the… You have to adopt these tools, but you also have to understand the risks involved.


CC: Absolutely.


MP: And a lot of things today, there’s a lot of publicity out there with security and hacks, and a lot of the health systems in hospitals are… I mean, I hate to be negative about it, but they’re not keeping up with the technology today, and some of their systems are not as solid as we expect them to be, or they would be with the personal health information and personal information. So we kinda design the thing right from the ground up. So some of the HIPAA-compliant things like access control, audit controls, person and identity authentication. And those are key things under HIPAA, that people kind of maybe gloss over a little bit, but those are the key things that… Things only blow up when they blow up, right?


CC: Right. Right.


MP: Everything seems to be fine until there’s an issue. So just to let you know that there’s a security management process that we take in place, that you can audit if there is a breach. What is the breach notification process and protocols? And that’s also from our perspective, but also from the clinician perspective, because there are different holes. So we’ve taken that approach to building the solutions, so that there is an administrator portal and dashboard, so you can monitor everything that goes on. If there is an incident, you can go in and audit. Most of the solutions out there don’t give you that. And particularly, some of the free solutions out there, you just don’t have that granularity to that level of security and access to that security and audit capability. And again, we spoke to a lot of the insurance companies, also the malpractice insurance companies, to understand, “Okay, if there was a breach, where’s the issue here?” And we signed BAAs because we’re very, very confident about how we have built our solution, but also the clinicians have to understand also, and it’s part of the education process as technology gets into the different workflows of health and so on. It’s very important to understand that.


CC: Yeah. And it’s interesting that you talk about the BAA, because I think people that have become informed about requirements, they realize that you have to have what’s called a business associate agreement. And they think, “Okay. If I get a platform that has that offers me this signed agreement called a BAA, a business associate agreement, then I’m pretty good,” and you offer that. But there’s more to it to be compliant with HIPAA. And you’ve created something that… One of the things I thought was interesting was the level of encryption, but this is active encryption. And could you talk a little bit about that, that this is ongoing encryption, not just at the beginning of the call. Well, you can speak to that.


MP: Yeah. Again, there’s a few things out there that everybody talks about encryption, but sometimes it’s point-to-point, it’s a one-point encryption, it’s continuous encryption, so randomly, we change throughout the transmission. So during your session, your audio, video, you begin with an encryption end-to-end point, and a unique token that expires after your session is done, so it can’t be reused. And so that’s one key thing. And it also continues and change during your transmission for an extra level of security. So, again, you got that extra protection from a clinician, and so to your clients or patients. So that’s one key thing. We also do group sessions, and one of the nuances that kinda gets glossed over a little bit is you can do a group session. It’s not really enough under HIPAA to provide the same link to… Let’s say, you have six people in your group session, or eight people, to have the same link. So we actually have a unique identifier, although it’s the same transmission and the same session, we have a unique identifier per individual.


CC: Wow.


MP: Yeah. Again, each one of those, the clinician plus the client, also has that protection that there’s a unique identifier. And again, that helps the audit process. If there was a breach, we would be able to identify where that breach originated. For instance, if it was not on our system, but certainly maybe one of the participants somehow left their computer open with the password or what have you, or lost their laptop for instance, and didn’t have password protected or encrypted, and someone accessed it, we would be able to determine the source of it. So again, that’s part of HIPAA, to have an audit capability. And so as these things evolve and the… As a covered entity under the HIPAA rules, those are part of the rules and regulations that one should be aware of.


CC: Now, I know my listeners pretty well, so I know the questions that they’re having right now. So I wanna stop you on a couple of things. When you say groups, a lot of therapists have talked about having a difficult time finding a platform that is going to support group psychotherapy. NousTalk does, is there a limit in number of participants in a group?


MP: Well, there isn’t, theoretically, but I would say, practically, if you think of you as an online therapist and you have 10 people around and you wanna each be able to see one another, there’s a limitation on the real estate, so it’s really the real estate on the screen. And so to have everybody’s picture and video transmission, their face, let’s say, being projected on the screen, I think depending on what kind of a device you have, if you have a large monitor, it might be fine, but for the other participants that are doing it on a laptop, it might not be that great. So we kinda suggest 8 to 10 tops, would be reasonable.


CC: Okay. I think that’s a solid group of what most people are looking for. Now, the other question, you used the phrase “token”. So let’s talk about that, when you create this online therapy room. And I wanna be clear to our listeners, there are platforms out there that offer this service that you have to download some software, your client needs to download some software. This is similar to VSee, is a popular platform out there. And so you use this software, kinda like Skype, you have to download Skype and your client has to. This is very different. This is a link that is created, and it’s an online encrypted room that all your client has to do is to click on that link, and boom, you’re in the room. No outside applications or anything that you have to download, software, you just click on the link. Is that a correct assumption?


MP: Yes, absolutely. So each link is unique. I guess just to back up a little bit, there’s two ways in our platform to schedule an appointment. One is, and this comes back to our research, again, is that we found that between 20 and 40% of sessions that were booked with a client or patient had to be rescheduled and re-booked, or canceled, or there was a no-show. So that’s a pretty big time commitment that… And particularly as solo clinician, would go through. And so we’ve created an automated approach where the clinician can initiate a session, and also on their website, they create… A lot of clinicians are out there buying another third-party solution for scheduling on their website. And what we have done is created both, and it’s completely linked, so your patients can go in, you have an ability to sink your own calendar, your face-to-face calendar with your online calender and show availability, and your clients could come in and book an online session with you.


CC: And that’s one of the things that I love. And really, what I’ve discovered, and we talked about this last time, was that this platform really does sort of revolve around the calendar. And when you create a session on your calendar, or your client does, it creates that encrypted room, sends them an email with the link. So it really revolves around this scheduler, calendar, that you can personalize, put on your website, it’s all private, nobody’s name is included in that. And I just, I love it.


MP: Yeah. And again, that was designed primarily to meet one of one of the HIPAA requirements, was that the person and identity authentication. So when you have somebody that’s come in and registered to you, as a client of yours, they have a unique token to them only. So you’re confirming the identity of that individual and you’re verifying. So when they come in and register with you, they get an automated email just to verify their address. And again, you have a verification process, you get a checkmark there. And then when they schedule something with you, again, that unique link is on both sides, and the clinician receives an automated email that there has been a request. So again, a lot of this has been automated today, in our platform, can make life easier. The workflow of clinicians. So I come back at the very beginning, and we found these kind of bottlenecks and time pressures where the clinician would prefer to be face-to-face and spending time with their clients, providing care, yet they were doing a lot of administrative tasks, scheduling, rescheduling, booking appointments, canceling appointments, and all of those kind of things. So that was part of the thinking when creating this automated workflow, to make life as easy as possible.


CC: It is so easy, it’s so convenient, and it really feels like, and I guess it is, created for online therapists and the type of work that we do. And it has reduced so much back and forth with my clients. I just love it. Let’s talk a little bit about some of the bells and whistles that you provide. You can set up your Stripe account and accept payment through your platform, right?


MP: That’s correct, yeah. And it literally takes you less than five minutes, and you just put in everything, the payments for each of your patients. So you have a couple of options. Again, one can that we have some therapists that like to have their clients’ credit card information and they can’t book a session with them unless they do. And others prefer, I guess, existing clients that they’ve had, they’re kind of a little bit more relaxed about that and they may have it on file already, but they don’t mandate that before they can book a session. So you have those options. And it goes directly right into your bank account.


CC: Yeah, I love it. And another little interesting thing that you’ve put on there, and you don’t have to have this, but the idea, I suppose, is that when you create this online room, this token, that it’s created for a certain window of time, maybe five minutes before, or five or 10 minutes after the scheduled time, and then it disappears. But while you’re in there, you can turn on this clock, and it’s like a session clock. When I see clients in my office, there’s a clock over my shoulder and a clock over their shoulder, so we keep track of the time. This is an interesting thing to have on there that on the screen, on the video screen, is this kinda countdown clock, so everybody’s aware this is the amount of time that we have in this session, it prevents some of those doorknob conversations of, “Oh, we only have 30 seconds left, but let me tell you this huge thing that just happened.” So you don’t have to have that, but that’s a nice little feature that you can put on there. Some other things that you offer are notes that a clinician can have online notes that your platform, right?


MP: Yes, that’s right. So it’s available to both the clinician and to your client. And your notes are private to you, as a clinician, and their notes are private to them. But we found that often, just like you said, that a lot of your clients, you get talking, sometimes and you lose track of time, and they had three or four items that they really wanted to speak to you about on that particular day, at that particular session, and they lose track of time. And within three minutes, they have to deal with three very important things that they kinda didn’t get to. So this kind of gives them a little bit of a… They can quickly look at the notes and say, “I wanna talk about this,” so they can keep on track. And then the timer, of course, helps you with the countdown to manage the time for both you and the client as well. So those two are kinda connected.


CC: Now, my uncle is a lawyer, and I think his rule never ask a question you don’t know the answer to, but I’m gonna bring that back. Do you have the capacity, I think you do, to share documents? Let’s say, I have a worksheet that I want this client to go through, so we’re gonna share that with them. And then a follow-up question on that is that, do you have the ability with this platform to have electronic signatures. So that if I have a form and an informed consent, that they can sign that online? So those are two questions. I don’t know the answer to that.


MP: Well, yes, yes, yes and yes. One is we do have the ability to share your desktop, for instance. And we found that sometimes you were referring to a document or a book or something that you’ve been discussing in your sessions with your client, and you just wanna remind them of the chapter or what have you, and you can pull that up, or you’ve had a presentation that you wanted to share with your client, and you can do that right online. You can share documentation. Now, we’ve got kind of two things at the moment. One is typical to a lot of license agreements that most people are used to. You kinda click a box, and by accepting these terms and conditions, you accept that. And we’re kind of experimenting right now with the actual digital signature that you could use some of the Adobe tools, and we’ve been experimenting with that. It’s just with the adoption issue right now, most of the online therapists that we’re working with prefer to have a hard copy, a fax of the initial documentation or a scan of it sent in separately. So I guess we’re flexible to work with all the different workflows that people are kind of adjusting to. And as they feel comfortable using the digital signatures or this type of “click here to accept the terms and conditions”, there’s some choice there for each of the clinicians.


CC: Now, one of the things also that I think I’ve heard you talk about is that you… I don’t even know how to phrase this, that when perhaps the internet is a little clogged, and the reception isn’t as good as you would want, I mean, I’ve got clients in Kazakhstan, sometimes the internet is not so good. Your solution will adjust so that maybe there is… The pipeline is, as the information going back and forth, I’m not going to notice the difference in the HD quality video or whatever, but you have that ability so that you can have a firm, strong connection. And is that accurate? Maybe you could talk a little more clearly than I am right now.


MP: And that’s a common issue, is people have different quality of internet connection. So our solution does the encryption, but we also do a compression. So again, it throttles to the quality of your connection, and so we’re trying to get as best an image and audio transmission as possible. And for instance, in a group chat situation, one of the participants, let’s say you have five people in the session, one of your participants might be in a poor connection or they might… We’ve had some issues where they may be using a Wi-Fi connection when they’re in their basement, and it’s probably the weakest part in their home or what have you. So we try to throttle it down to make their experience as good as possible. Now, that’s not optimal, of course. If they can move to other part of their home and not have concrete walls around them, obviously, there are some limitations, but, yes, we will use compression wherever necessary. We throttle up and down based on the quality. And where you might be in the world, we have a distributed network that we take advantage of. So depending on what part of the world, it’ll use the nearest data center to transmit to you, to improve the quality, yeah.


CC: Okay. Let’s talk a little bit about personalizing and branding. Am I correct that you offer a level of membership where a therapist could really personalize and put their own branding on the solution, correct?


MP: Oh, yeah. All our tiers, we’ve designed it so that the URL, for instance, and that’s if you… Let’s say, for you, claycockrell.com, for instance, you would just have claycockrell.com with our NousTalk subdomain. So if you personalize subdomain, your logo and branding would be online on your website, and your scheduling tool on your website. And also, when you’re in the solution, your personal brand would always be there, so there’s no… It’s white-label, basically, to you. And you personalize it any which way you’d like.


CC: Great. So talk to me a little bit about the different tiers and the pricing and what comes with each tier.


MP: Yeah. Right now we’ve got, I would say, three tiers. We have kind of your private practice or individual clinician situation, where that’s $29.95 a month. We have a small clinic tier, so typically under 20 therapists, and that’s $49 a month. And we have an enterprise level at $99 per month. And each one of those has different levels of security access, and so on. For instance, the private… The small clinic, and a lot of small clinics with 10 to 20 clinicians for instance, might have a receptionist or somebody that does scheduling, for instance. So we offer an admin capability for that individual, and they would have a certain restriction to the things that they could do, of course, because we wanna maintain the HIPAA compliance and have all the checks and balances still in place, but they could book online appointments for any of the therapists.


MP: Each one of the profiles, for instance, of each one of the online therapists is available via the website and their individual calendar is each available. So you could book… You can come in, you can look at the practice and all the individuals in that practice, select your particular regular clinician, or if you’re new, you could look through their profiles and look at… To try to match up, to get the best match for your particular needs. By looking at each one of their profiles, you can quickly click and look at their availability and book an appointment. So that gives a lot of leverage to the practice.


CC: Wow, that’s just really perfect for these… And I just recently, maybe it was last week now, that did a interview with an online group practice, and I would imagine there that Tier, I, as a managing director or treatment coordinator, I could see how my therapists are doing. Did they see three clients today? Did they see seven? And kind of keep track on what’s going on there.


MP: Absolutely. So that’s a part of the admin capability. So you can go in, you can look at all the payments that have gone through from each of the therapists, you can look at all the different users you’ve had and who’s used it and when. It’s all date and timestamped for the audit capability. So all those things are in the background, and all those reports are available.


CC: Right.


MP: So you can have granularity into your practice so that, again, you’re compliant, your insurance, your malpractice insurance would be covered, based on all those things that I’ve just mentioned. We do have, obviously, the personalization, the note-taking, we have the invoicing capabilities, so again, when you do a payment, you have an automatic email that goes out with the invoice to your client as well. And in our enterprise tier, and we do offer depending on the clinics, if you’re doing supervisory work or you have some new therapists that are training, you can record, given their permission with the client, you can record the session and you can do some mentoring, and technique and so on. And so you do have a recording of the session, and that’s encrypted. It’s an encrypted request, and you can download that to your desktop and you can review it amongst your peers, and so on, depending on the supervisory situation that you have. So we have that available as well.


CC: Wow, and this is just really affordable. I have an office that I rent, of course, this is Manhattan real estate prices, that’s near up to $2000 a month. I can’t, sometimes when I write that check. And I’ve talked to other therapists that went, “I want something free. I want a platform that’s free,” but some of those free platforms don’t offer what you do. And when you look at creating an office, an online office for 29 bucks a month, or even if you’ve got a group practice for only $49 a month, this is incredibly affordable. So, good job.


MP: Well, it was part of our mission to make it accessible. And again, to help with the adoption. I know, in the big scheme of things, $29 a month, depending on your hourly fee, it seems like a small amount over a course of the month, but not everybody is using online therapy. Some of our clients are using it 20 hours a month, some are using exclusively, some are only using five, but still, at $29 month on an economic basis, it’s still… Yeah, you’re right, it’s a pretty inexpensive, for this type of level of tool. And of course, the peace of mind that you are compliant. And not just with the BAA, the BAA goes… I didn’t talk about the high-tech thing which is kind of the higher security level of the BAA that’s necessary, but that’s pretty important to know both. And a lot of our therapists go and check with their insurance companies to make sure that they’re meeting all the necessary requirements. No surprises.


CC: Well, yeah, absolutely. And is interesting, I’ve interviewed a few founders of different HIPAA-compliant platforms, and one of the things that, when we began to talk and I wanted to set up a podcast interview, you said, “No, I want you to go on to use the platform,” and that was so smart of you because now I am a huge fan. I just love this, and I think it’s just such a wonderful addition for our industry, for our field to have this capable… And I just have the sense that you and your team are going above and beyond in finding out what HIPAA needs, what the malpractice insurance are requiring. And then just, on a granular level, of what we, as clinicians, what we need to make our lives a little easier. So I’m a big fan. And were there any… Just last parting thoughts, ’cause we’ve really just really talked about the tip of the iceberg of everything here. And I know you’re probably chomping at the bit, there’s so much more to talk about, but with a limited time, I think we’ve hit the highlights. Is there anything else that maybe we want to have some parting words on?


MP: Well, I think I come back to the perfect storm, and I think that all these things that are combining right now, are making the future of Telemedicine, particularly for the mental health segment, easy, affordable, and it’s easy to adopt these things into your workflow, into your practices. I think we’re seeing a huge uptick now, and I think in the last probably year and a half, with all these things combining, we’re gonna see a lot more adoption from a lot of therapists.


MP: I just wanted to give you a little anecdote of things. A couple of years ago, when we were developing this, we thought, “Oh, it’s gonna be all the young therapists that are just getting graduating and starting the practices that are gonna adopt this.” And so we were expecting that that would be our first initial wave of adopters, and it’s been completely counterintuitive. In fact, it’s been more senior practitioners, clinicians that have been in practice, maybe not as technologically up to date like some of the younger folks graduating today that are online all the time. But they’re the ones that have been demanding the solution. Because I guess, some of the other forces that there clients are demanding it, they have very, very busy practices, and they’re trying to be more efficient and meet the needs of their patients. So telemedicine is the first step that they’re taking to meet those needs. And so we’ve got some retired or semi-retired therapists, believe it or not, 65+ that are using this. And I would say most of our therapists are not millennials as we would have expected, which is kind of counterintuitive. [chuckle]


CC: Absolutely. I remember talking at a conference with a therapist who was retiring and moving to Florida, her and her husband were moving to Florida, and she said, “I just got licensed in Florida because I wanna keep working. I want to do telemental health from home.” And so I just think it’s inspiring, that across generations, our industry and our field is embracing this. But, Martin, again, thank you so much for your time on this. If you wanna learn more about NousTalk, it’s N-O-U-S Talk, T-A-L-K.com. They’ll be able to walk you through a free demo, and all these other things that we’ve talked about are gonna be in the show notes. Martin, thank you so much for spending time with us today.


CC: My pleasure, Clay. Pleasure to speak with you, thank you.