Thank you for joining us as we explore the world of online counseling, tele-mental health, online therapy, e-therapy, distance counseling. There’s so many names for what we do. But basically, my hope is that we can learn together about how therapists are connecting with their clients via technology. And I’m always impressed with learning how my colleagues are ethically and legally using technology to expand their practices in helping their clients. And today, I’m working from home, one of the many benefits of online counseling. And my next door neighbor has decided to do some demolition work. I live in a row house. So when I say next door neighbor, I mean really next door. We share a wall. Many of you are aware of the many New York City sounds that come into this podcast, like sirens, and taxi whistles and today, we have new sounds of pounding.
CC: Oh, well. I hope it’s not too distracting because I’m really excited about our guest, Dr. Christopher Quarto, is an online therapist and college professor in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. And for the longest time, I’ve seen him everywhere on social media. Any time someone posts something on Facebook about online counseling before I could respond, he usually had already said something, and it’s always more helpful and on point than anything I could have said anyway. And eventually I said, “I got to get to know this guy”. And after emailing back and forth, he agreed to come on the podcast. Chris is incredibly knowledgeable about distance counseling and is the creator of the Facebook group Distance Counseling Community. With almost 600 members, it’s one of the largest Facebook groups devoted to this subject, and it’s filled with incredibly valuable information about how to start and grow an online counseling practice. And as a professor, he has developed a training program for how to teach online counseling that I think is just brilliant and we get to talk about that today. It’s really a framework for how educators can approach training students and licensed professionals on the ins and outs of becoming an online therapist. And if you haven’t had a chance to check out the online therapy directory, please visit us at onlinecounseling.com.
CC: Hello and welcome. I am very excited about our guest today, Dr. Christopher Quarto in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. Chris, thank you so much for agreeing to meet with us today.
Dr. Christopher Quarto: Hey, it’s not a problem Clay. And I’m really glad that you offered me this opportunity.
CC: Of course. We’ve kind of been in the same circles for a little while now. I see your name on social media so much and every time you add a comment somewhere, it’s full of value and I just thought, “This is somebody I’ve got to get to know”.
DQ: Well, I really appreciate that and I can’t wait to have a conversation with you.
CC: Well. So you are in private practice in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. You are also a professor and you’re a clinical psychologist down there. Tell me a little bit about your journey to Tennessee and private practice and college professor.
DQ: Well, I’ll give you the short version. When I got out of my Master’s Degree program back in the mid 1980s, I worked in a community mental health for a couple of years. Kinda cut my teeth there, jack of all trades, trying to do everything. And I’m not sure how good of a job I did but got some pretty good experience. But at the time, Clay in mid-1980s there was no licensure in Michigan, in fact I think only about maybe a dozen states at that time had counselor licensure laws. And so there really wasn’t much that I was gonna be able to do in terms of working my way up into the organization and supervision and anything along those lines. So really for me at that time, I thought that the only real viable option was to go back to school and I did. I went to University of Illinois, where I got my doctoral degree in Counseling Psychology. I did a one year internship in a psychiatric hospital. And then moved to Green Bay with my wife and I was in a full-time private practice up there for six years.
DQ: But I always wanted to teach, I had a teaching background, and so I thought, “Well if I’m gonna be a good teacher, I should have experience first.” So, that’s really why I wanted to get that private practice experience. And so, did that for six years and then we moved on to Murfreesboro, Tennessee. I had no idea where Murfreesboro, Tennessee was, but I discovered it was a real cool place and I was fortunate enough to get a job down here. So I’m starting my 21st year in the professional counseling program. Still do part-time private practice, I do psychological evaluations, and do distance counseling, so do both of those things on a part-time basis.
CC: Wow. So I love that you are also the creator and you run the distance counseling community, Facebook group for online therapists. How long have you been doing that?
DQ: I started that I believe it was earlier this year, and really the whole idea behind that was to try to serve as an educational component. I’m a professor so I obviously education and learning is very important to me, so I wanted to create some way for me to be able to connect with the members of the community, and for community members to offer them a forum to be able to connect to one another, to talk about these issues around online counseling. And how do you do this and all those kind of good issues and important issues. So I started that a little earlier this year, and I think we’re up to about, it’s probably three or 400 members now it’s going well.
CC: Yeah, that’s incredible. What’s it like for you to run a Facebook group like that? I think it takes a lot of time and energy and, but it can be really rewarding. What’s it been like for you?
DQ: It’s been a great experience for me. I tried to start it off just similar to what I would do, I guess, in an online class that I might teach where I try to throw out some questions, spark some discussion and a lot of times at first, I’m the one who’s doing a lot of the interaction with the community members. But, you know Clay over time, we have some pretty amazing members in our group where they’re starting to interact with one another. I can just kinda throw in my two cents every now and then and just really function more as a community member. There are not a lot of times that I have to quote, “moderate” or get on to people for inappropriate postings or anything like that. It just it takes time. It’s something that you just have to kinda keep up with but to be quite honest, I learn so much from reading these posts and I get as much out of it as people do who are members of the community. So it’s really been a great experience for me.
CC: Yeah, I can concur. I love your group, and there’s just so much information and this idea of we’re learning about this together, as an industry, so you’ve really created this opening for a lot of people to share their experiences, ask questions. And it’s just very supportive. So what are, ’cause you’ve got members from all over the country, all over the world, what are some of those common themes maybe that are questions that you’re seeing pop up in your Facebook group.
DQ: Well, I think that I have another Facebook group, private practice journeys, and I get a lot of people from that group and in other Facebook groups who have heard about the distance counseling community, and they have an interest. Distance counseling obviously starting to become a very popular type of counseling, and people are interested and they wanna learn more about it. So, I’m getting people who are new to the area. And I think one of the common things that I’ve read Clay is, “How do you do this? How do you do distance counseling what’s it all about?” And so I think you just have very basic questions like that to begin with and so people will have questions. What platforms do you use and what are some problems that you run into? And so all those are typical types of questions that people will raise. But of course you also have people who wonder about the ethics of doing this and there are concerns and I think legitimate concerns about well how do you ensure security, how do you… To make sure that people aren’t hacking in and listening to conversations and these types of things, and even training.
DQ: It never fails to amaze me that I’ll read some of these posts were people are very enthusiastic about doing this, which is really cool, but maybe put in the cart before the horse. And not thinking about the issue of getting training and there are differences between online and in-person counseling and so I think that there is that issue of wanting to do this, but getting the training, I think is another one of those ethical issues that I see. And of course, one that I’ve heard you talk about on your own podcast is counseling across state lines and I think that that’s one of the most common ones and the way that I kind of think about this when people ask this question, well, can I just get on Skype and Skype with somebody and I live in Tennessee, can I just Skype with somebody in Georgia or North Dakota or whatever.” And it’s like, well, what would happen if I were to get in my car and drove across to the Kentucky border and stopped at the rest area and decided to open up an office there and just said, “Hey everybody, anybody who needs counseling come on over and see me.” Do you think that the Kentucky Board of professional counselors would be happy with me doing that?
DQ: Probably not, because I’m not licensed in that state. So it’s similar to that, I kinda see that. And there are exceptions, there are boards that allow you to do maybe 30 days of counseling in the state or whatever, but I think those are some of the things that people need to give thought to, that if you can… If you’re not allowed to do that across state lines just in person, why would you think that you could do that through Telehealth or through video-counselling or something like that. Other than the exceptions. But those are some of the things, so I think those are some of the common issues that I usually read about and respond to.
CC: Yeah, and it’s always shocking I suppose, of people who like, “Oh I never thought about this. I can… I’ve heard maybe somebody talking about Skype counseling and anybody recommend a good way to get set up or something.” And they’ve not thought about anything, as far as the ethics or training or how do you set up your camera and lighting and this is…
CC: And I guess that’s the wonderful thing about Facebook groups, because there’s a lot of people that have been doing this for a little while and this is a place to get your questions answered.
DQ: Exactly. And it’s similar to people who might hear about a really neat technique, therapeutic technique and maybe reading an article and then thinking in that says, “Oh I think I’m gonna try this.”
CC: Yes. Why not?
DQ: Why not get in the training. Yeah and it’s the same sort of thing where it’s against our ethics to do those types of things but so I think these are some of the basic things, and that’s the nice thing about the Facebook group Clay is you can point these things out to people or have discussions with people about this before they do something like this that could potentially harm a client. And it’s really nice that we have this forum to be able to discuss these things to address those types of issues.
CC: Yeah. And there’s a few out there, and you’re active in quite a bit of them. Some of the online counseling Facebook groups, there’s the Telehealth and I don’t know, there’s some five or six them.
DQ: There are a lot of them.
CC: Do you set aside some time and just like I’m gonna stay on top of this and keep my name out there?
DQ: The one that I really pay attention to the most is my own of course. But the other ones… I’ll tell you what I do, I’ll tell you my little secret. Is I walk a lot just for my own self-care and while I’m walking, I might pull out my phone and I get on Facebook, and just kinda scroll through and read some of these. It is at that time I might respond every now and then to that. So that’s basically how I do that but it’s not… I’m not sure if it’s really an intentional thing. I don’t wanna intentionally get on every one of those groups every day and respond. I don’t do anything like that. If something happens to catch my eye I might respond to it, if there’s something that I think that I can offer that’s of value, I’ll usually respond to it. Like as an example, I was just saying a little bit ago about counseling across state line seems to be one of these big issues. And of course, the typical answer is well, it’s important to check with your state licensure board to see what the rules are, if they even have any rules about doing this kind of counseling.
DQ: And I think you’re aware of that document that 50 states survey document by Austin Becker and Green and that’s one that I’ll often refer people to. Just as a starting point, just get access to that document, take a look for your particular state. What they say. If you’re a professional counselor? If you’re a psychologist social worker, whatever you are, and that’s a good starting point just to kind of understand what your board says about doing distance counseling. And then you can go from there. Get on their website and see if you can find any additional information, but that’s a real good starting point.
CC: Yeah, they did incredible work with that. And I need to call them up and see if they’re planning maybe an update to it, because it’s about a year old and if things change so quickly.
DQ: You’re right. You’re right.
CC: But yeah, that’s a wonderful starting place. And then of course, the questions of what kind of platform people are using, and there’s new ones coming out all the time. Do you have one that you typically steer people toward?
DQ: I don’t steer people toward a particular one. Usually, I’ll just kind of list some options. For me personally, I found VSee to be very good. I’ve used Doxy.me as well. I like that one too. I mean those are usually the two that I’ll go to for my online therapy sessions. But I’m aware that there are other ones out there and people have their own preferences for what they like and whatnot but for me, VSee has really proven to be a very reliable in the easy platform to use.
CC: Yeah, I’ve played around with VSee and I’ve heard that over and over that once people start with one and they kinda start liking it and then it becomes, they don’t move around from platform to platform.
DQ: Yeah, it’s familiar. Yeah, it’s. Yeah, I agree.
CC: Absolutely. So talking a little bit about some of the why people don’t go into distance counseling, maybe some of the biases that are out there. You were talking recently about being your presentation and hearing some feedback from those there.
DQ: Yeah. I made a presentation a couple of months ago at the Association for Counselor Education and Supervision Conference, and this was a presentation on distance counseling. Now, there are very few presentations on that topic at this conference. There are actually more this year. I’ve seen… There are probably about five or six of those presentations this year, where maybe one or two the previous year. But in my conversations with, not only professors, but just counselors in general, I found out there’s bias against distance counseling. One of the things that I’ll hear is that, “Well, this seems to be a real bad and it’s really not as effective as in-person counseling.
DQ: Yeah. And what’s interesting, if you read the literature, if you read the research, especially over the past three years, it’s really debunked that. What we know is that at this point in time, online counseling, and I’m just referring now to video counseling ’cause these are the reviews that I read, are just as effective as in-person counseling. So that’s no longer the case. So, you just can’t say that it’s not as effective because the research shows that that’s not true.
DQ: I think another thing is what I mentioned previously, Clay, is about the whole issue of security and people can hack in. So, why are you doing… Privacy, and all these kinds of issues. Well, if you were properly educated, and this is why education and learning about this stuff is so important. You will learn that there are certain things that you can do to protect the privacy of clients. There are certain platforms that you can use that are HIPAA secure, so that is really not the case anymore. As long as you’re taking safeguards… It’s the same thing that we do when we do in-person counseling. We take certain safeguards to protect the anonymity and the privacy of our clients. We do the same thing in distance counseling, but we just go about it in slightly different ways. That’s all. So that’s not really the case either. And then of course, I think one that probably does make a little bit more sense to me is that when you do distance counseling, you’re missing out on certain things, on certain nonverbals or you can’t make direct eye contact with clients, and I could see that as a possible issue. Or what happens if a client has been consuming alcohol. If you were meeting with them in person, you’d be able to smell that. But if you do distance counseling, you can’t.
DQ: So there are trade-offs. But I don’t think that those trade-offs should prevent you from giving this a try because for some clients, they might actually prefer to do distance counseling and they might find it to be very helpful. You can look back in the history of counseling, I think. And if you look back just biofeedback, when biofeedback was first getting its start, people were probably looking at some of those things and thinking, “Oh my God. What do you mean? Put something on a person’s head? Put these electrodes on people’s heads and all parts of the body? What are you thinking of? That can’t be effective”. Well, that’s the standard practice now. We know that’s effective, that it helps people with different types of conditions. So, I think that we have to look at some of these things and say, “Okay, we’re in a new era and a new area of practicing counseling”. And some of these things, I think, you have to be willing to suspend judgment and to learn and to give it a try and to see how it works for you.
CC: Yeah, that’s interesting. I just had a flashback. When I first got to New York, I worked at an insurance company that managed care, essentially, making sure that the out-patients benefits we’re using appropriately. And I remember my supervisor saying, “You need to go talk to this guy. He’s some nut job that wants to do neuro-feedback. I’ve never heard of this thing, but this is… We’re not gonna authorize it, so get rid of him.” I’m like, “Okay”.
CC: How times have changed.
DQ: Oh, I know. Isn’t that amazing? When I was in private practice in Green Bay, I worked at… This was in early ’90s and I worked with a psychologist who was on the cutting edge of neuro-feedback, and it was just amazing because he got so much flack in our community for doing this, and now look at him now. This is just like you said, standard practice that have come so far.
DQ: Yeah, it’s really amazing.
CC: Yeah. But interesting that they would… The people that you’ve been speaking with would think of this as a fad. This does not seem like something that’s going away anytime soon, just like the Internet is not going to go away. I did a podcast, it’s… I think by the time we hear this one, it would be the previous week, talking to Marc Lehman in Connecticut who started Dorm Room Counseling. And he’s working with teens in colleges, connecting with him online, going through all the pressures of college.
CC: This is not something going right, particularly of that generation. They grew up on the internet. This is not something foreign to them.
DQ: Exactly. And that’s what people don’t understand. And actually, he’s doing a really neat thing there. I think that that’s a great market and in fact, to take that one step further, how about all those students who are taking all of their classes online? What kind of services do they get? They still have to pay the fees, the student fees to university but yet, they would have to go out of their way to drive to campus to get those services at a college counseling center, why not offer them the option of online counseling? If they’re doing a totally online degree program, give them the option of doing online counseling, as opposed to having to drive maybe 30, 50, or 100 miles to a campus to see a counselor at a college counseling center.
CC: Yeah, it just… It makes sense. It makes sense.
DQ: Yeah, yeah.
CC: Now, you’re working with your students, so how you’re doing some training in online counseling with your students and what are their reactions to this process?
DQ: Well, I’m actually not doing any training with my students yet, because there’s… We still haven’t got to that point, we’re starting to move in that direction. But what I have done, Clay, is I’ve developed a model for training students in this area. And what I wanted to do, and I was talking about this conference that I presented at a couple of months ago, what I wanted to do was to present this model to counselor educators, so they could see that there is something available to them, something that they can use to start training students in this area. Because this is not a fad, this is going to be the norm, and this is starting to become the norm, in what you said about the current generation, the millennials, and they grew up with technology. This is what they’re used to, talking to one another by Skype, or FaceTime, whatever it is, this is common place to them. It’s not necessarily the people of my generation, but it certainly is of the current generation.
DQ: So this is something that I see on the horizon in the counseling field where counseling students are gonna need to be trained in this area, because it’s gonna become more common place as time goes on. So what I did as I came up with a distance counseling training model, and it’s primarily for people, graduate students in counseling, psychology, social work, marriage and family counseling programs, but a lot of this can also be applied to people who are currently licensed.
DQ: So I have these four stages, knowledge, skill, evaluation and reflection. And I think knowledge is what we’ve been talking about all along in terms of well, what is online counseling? How is it different from in-person counseling? What are some of these platforms? Some of these things that you and I have been talking about, the technical elements, the microphones and cameras and the legal and ethical issues. All of those types of things, you kinda have to learn the lay of the land, and so that’s the first part of the models is with knowledge.
DQ: And then with skill, what I think is very important is to start very basic by just reading some cases about how people have done distance counseling. And when I first started doing distance counseling in the 80s, it was on the telephone. That’s actually a form of distance counseling.
CC: Sure, sure.
DQ: Nowadays, primarily it’s done with video, but just reading cases about how people actually go about doing this, and maybe and then watching distance counseling sessions with experts or people who have been doing this is just to look at, “Okay this is how it’s done… This is how it’s done, this is how it looks like. And I’ve actually got a little video on YouTube that kind of shows how this is done. Then role plays, this kind of experiences yourself. What would it be like if you were actually doing this. And then maybe providing these services in the case of students under supervision of professors. In the case of licensed professionals may be in consultation with more experienced colleagues.
DQ: And then evaluation, how do you evaluate yourself? Do you think that you did a good job when you did this? How about the client, get them to evaluate you? Maybe the classmate, if you’re doing a role play or a colleague can do that as well and maybe having the instructor as part of that evaluation process too. And then reflection, what is it that I did well? What is it that I didn’t do so well? What is it that I would do differently the next time that I did this? So these are the four stages. And essentially what happens is that you kind of go around these stages bit by bit, and it’s just not a one-time process, you kind of go through these at progressively deeper levels and stage process as you gain experience. So that’s kind of what it looks like.
CC: That’s an incredible model.
CC: A lot of people are saying, we need training on this, we need to teach this.
CC: How do we do it?
DQ: And there are organizations out there, I think you’re aware that there are organizations like Zur Institute and Telehealth Certification Institute. The thing about those, a lot of those places is that they focus a lot on the knowledge component which is really important, not as much on the skill component though. Many years ago when I did my training, there was a company called Ready Minds that was probably the only company, that would give this kind of training.
CC: Yes, I remember that.
DQ: Yeah. Randy Miller was the owner of that, 2009 was when I did my training. And back then it was not only a knowledge component, there was a skill component that we did. We used telephones to role play with one another and did this kind of stuff. So it gave us that kind of thing, but boy I tell you, a lot of these places are only focusing on the knowledge. And we really need the skill component to be part of this as well.
CC: I will tell you the other training program that’s out there, that I’ve gotten to know and she’s in the UK is Philippa Weitz and PW Training. And she wrote the book Psychotherapy 2.0 and she’s got a training program that’s incredibly intensive and it really does focus, of course, there is the knowledge component in the tech and ethical. But it’s how am I connecting? How am I moving my client to a different place or the empathy and using… Because you’re looking through a screen, you’re not sitting in the same room. This is a different process than face-to-face counselling. So therefore it needs to be trained in a different way.
DQ: That’s a great point and that’s another thing that I hear is that well, you can’t really develop an empathic relationship with somebody online which I say, that’s very foolish.
DQ: Yeah. But there are just… For me, when I first started doing online therapy, I looked at this as a challenge and I knew that it wouldn’t be as easy to develop a relationship with somebody online but I’m not gonna let that stop me. I don’t think anybody should really allow those types of things to stop them from doing this. Look at it as a challenge, maybe you have to adjust, maybe you have to do things a little bit differently when you do distance counseling but you shouldn’t let that stop you from doing it because man, there are a lot of people out there who need help and you could give it if you just give yourself the opportunity.
CC: Yeah. And I’m always learning. There was this kid that I was working with and I remember Phillip I had mentioned something about this. When we look at a screen, television screen, we’re watching some kind of show we rarely blink, we’re just looking on the screen and so we’re not really blinking. In a face-to-face therapy I can’t just stare at my client, that’s creepy and weird, you’re looking away, you’re reflecting in your eyes, going up but in an online counseling I find myself I’m just staring. And the other day I had an adolescent that I was working with… Adolescent, he’s 22, but anyway… And he was… [chuckle] Let’s say, he is an adolescent and he said, “Dude”, I laugh when I kind of said dude. He says, “Dude, you got to do something with the eye contact, you kinda freaking me out a little bit.”
CC: I was like, “alright, right.” I remember she said that, so he’s not so good with the eye contact.
DQ: That’s one of those things that I was talking about where part of this evaluation component where you can get feedback but in this case your client and you could use that and in reflect upon this and think yourself, “Okay, this is what I need to do differently the next time. These are the types of things that help us grow and develop as therapist and so that’s really no different from what you would do as standard in-person practice, where if you get feedback and if you were to watch yourself on a video, you get feedback from your clients whatever it is, you would do the same thing, you would do the same thing to make those changes to make yourself a better therapist so you don’t repeat those mistakes and so you grow and develop, that’s what it’s all about.
CC: Yeah, absolutely, being willing to learn and accepting critique and just being… We’re not gonna start being good at something, you have to start being not so good at something and continue to grow. I like this model you’ve developed, it just makes sense intuitively.
DQ: Yeah, yeah.
CC: I’m always impressed with you Chris, that you seem to be up to date on the changes of the field. Is there some place that you can recommend people visiting sites? Where are you getting some of your knowledge that maybe there are some standard places that people need to be looking?
DQ: I go about it in a very… Probably maybe a different way or a more organic way. We were talking a little while ago about posts that people put on these different Facebook groups and usually if I see something that looks to be of interest to me all this put in the keywords in Google and see what I can come up with and usually I come up with these things very organically so I may look through the first page of the Google results and there’s something there that I hadn’t seen before, whether it’s an article, whether it’s a website and I’ll go visit that and of course what ends up happening is that I go and I read the article whatever it is and there’ll be links there or references to other articles and all go search for those so I kinda go about it that way Clay. There’s not a particular place that I go to for my information, I might go through these traditional journal articles or I might go on Google, there’s just not one standard way that I do that.
CC: Well, that just says to me you’re embracing this spirit of curiosity.
CC: I’m not going to know but hey, here’s an interesting question, I’m gonna go learn.
DQ: It drives my wife nuts.
CC: Yeah, maybe our wives need to get together because my wife goes nuts too.
CC: This has been incredibly valuable. So if some of our listeners want to get in touch with you, what’s a really good way to follow you?
DQ: Well, a good way you could go to my website and it’s chrisquarto.com C-H-R-I-S Q-U-A-R-T-O dot com, and you can just learn about me, what I do. I have links to my two podcasts, Make a Mental Note is my old podcast and Private Practice Journeys, it’s actually… That’s coming to an end this month. I only have one more podcast episode to do. But at this point I have all that information on my website, so that’s probably the easiest way.
CC: Okay, that’s an interesting point ’cause I did wanna touch on that. Your two podcast, it’s coming to an end, do you plan out your podcast that this is the natural life span of my podcast and then I’m gonna wrap it up?
DQ: I didn’t do that with Make a Mental Note. Make a Mental Note was a real interesting project for me where basically I interviewed experts on different topics and it’s really fascinating ’cause of course I love to learn so I had the opportunity to interview all these people about different mental health issues, kinda how you do different types of counselling including distance counseling but for that one I didn’t have a particular time I was gonna start and stop it. For Private Practice Journeys that one is a little different because that one… What I wanted to do is I wanted to find some therapist who were just starting their private practices and I wanted to follow them for a year just to find out what it’s like for a person to actually start a practice.
DQ: And so what I did is I had these four therapists, three of whom just started their practices in January, one of whom has actually been in private practice since 1993 but she transitioned from solo to group practice, so group practice was brand new to her and so I interviewed them once a month throughout the course of 2017, just to find out what’s the journey like? I mean, from month to month, what’s it like to be a new practitioner and some of the things, some of the challenges, how do you deal with the challenges and so we have one more episode left where it’s gonna be a really cool episode because I have interviewed them individually up to this point in time, they have never had the opportunity to talk to one another through all this journey. So we’re gonna have our last episode where all four of them are gonna be on the podcast with me at the same time and we’re gonna kinda compare notes just to see how things went and it’s gonna be really cool. But that was just a one year project so that’s why I say that’s coming to an end.
CC: That’s freaking cool. That’s just a great idea.
DQ: It has been wonderful for me just from a learning perspective, that has been really cool and I hope people who listen to that podcast have gotten a lot out of it too.
CC: Okay, well it’s not been on my listing but its going to be now. I’m gonna put that on my library. What a great idea.
CC: Okay, well, Chris, thank you again. I want everybody to certainly go look into his distance counseling community, Facebook group. I’m gonna put all of this information in the show notes but Chris, have a great day and thank you for joining us.
DQ: Hey, not a problem, thanks so much for inviting me Clay.
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