Episode 4 – Christine Sachs

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Welcome to the Online Counseling Podcast.  Exploring the practice of counseling through technology.  Here’s your host Clay Cockrell.

Clay:                Hello and welcome to the Online Counseling Podcast.  My name is Clay Cockrell and I’m excited today because this is our fourth podcast and we’ve talked with a therapist in London and we’ve talked with a therapist in Mexico and New York.  And we’ve talked with Dr. Ivy Branin most recently about doing naturopathic work online.  And today we get to talk with a life coach and not just any life coach, we get to talk with Christine Sachs who is a life coach but she’s also a friend of mine and I frequently refer to her for people who are looking for life coaches.  And she refers to me for people looking for a therapist and we’ve come to understand the differences of coaching and therapy and how they can actually work together.  And, I just think she’s incredibly talented at what she does.  She’s well trained.  She’s got a vast amount of experience, an incredible amount of energy and she is the founder of Christine Sachs Coaching, which you can find at christinesachscoaching.com.  And, we get to talk with her today and just learn about her approach, which I found fascinating.  You know, coaches have been working with technology from the very beginning of life coaching which would be with telephone and now doing Skype and they’re very natural with this.  So, I think I got a little bit to learn from them and their approach.  So, let’s welcome her to the show.  Okay, welcome.  This is Clay Cockrell with the Online Counseling Podcast and today we are extremely fortunate to have – actually, a good friend of mine to join us to talk about her coaching practice.  And, while many of the people listening in are therapist and social workers and psychologist, we also want to reach out to other people using this medium to help people in general of tele-medicine.  So, I’m very happy to have Christine Sachs, life coach, join us.  So, welcome Christine.

Christine:        Hi!  Thanks for having me.

Clay:                Absolutely.  So, we met and – many of our listeners have heard me talk about this quite a bit – we met through BNI, which is Business Networking International.  And so, if you don’t know anything about BNI, I’m a huge cheerleader for BNI, wonderful for all small businesses to network.  So you can learn more about that in the show notes.  But, how did you get started in and hear about BNI and come to visit us that day?

Christine:        So I was in the middle of transitioning from a full-time day job into coaching.  And I had a high school friend actually that I’ve known who was a health coach.  So I set up an informational meeting, Christy, Christy Goldfeder, and I said, “So, how did you find business?”  And she told me about BNI and she invited me to come.  And so, I got up at some ungodly hour in the morning.  Joined everyone down in Midtown at 7:00.  And, at your meeting and what is now our meeting and I was really blown away by the community that was present.  Right, because I’m sure you’ve explained this before, but the concept that there’s only one profession per seat meant that the competition was way down.  And, you really – because it’s the same group of people every week – it really does become a community.  You get to know about people’s lives and their businesses and the industries in way more specificity than I would ever care to know about; trust in the State law or you know, title insurance whatever that is.  You know, like – so, it’s a great way to learn about other kinds of businesses out there and other kinds of business models.  So, in addition to community it’s also great learning and cool people and you’re there which is always nice.

Clay:                Well, you bring up a good point because there is only one person per profession.  And I remember when you came; they came to me and said, “Okay, you’re a therapist.  We’re getting a life coach coming in here, is there going to be competition?”  And we kind of educated the group as to the difference and that we can both be in the group and approach it in different ways.  So, I think that was kind of benefit to everybody.

Christine:        Yeah, and I love the thing that you said once, “People tell you their secrets and they tell me their dreams.”

Clay:                Yeah, I like that.

Christine:        Yeah, you need to trademark that because I tell people that and they’re like, “Oh, I love that, that’s so perfect!”

Clay:                That is pretty good.

Christine:        Yeah.

Clay:                So, okay.  So, tell us a little bit about – and here’s one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the podcast.

Christine:        Yeah.

Clay:                Was because in my industry, in therapy, we are very new to technology and while the psychotherapy industry is older than the life coaching industry, you all have been using telephone, email, essentially technology from the very beginning, right?

Christine:        Yes, we’re actually trained specifically to work over other mediums rather than in person.

Clay:                Which…

Christine:        I mean…

Clay:                Yeah.

Christine:        Go ahead.

Clay:                Well, I think that’s great.  From the beginning, in your education you are kind of taught some of the pitfalls and benefits of distance coaching.

Christine:        Yes, you know, I think it’s like anything else.  Not being trained as a therapist, I don’t know how the training is but – my guess is that you learn a lot about how to connect with people, how to gain their trust and all of those things.  And we – you know, the foundational model is similar in that, you can’t really make a difference if you don’t have some of these fundamental relationship aspects in place.  And it’s really kind of live learning, you know, experiential training.  So, you learn very quickly how to create that through the modeling of it, right.  So, in my mentor program, we got a mentor coach for a full year.  And, the mentor coach was required to do their sessions over the phone or via video conference, even if you’re in the same city.  Therefore, you actually were modeling how to be in a relationship with someone through the experience of it. Like, oh, I notice that this works, I notice that that works, I notice that I can tell when this person’s eating and that’s weird.  You know, because coaches are human.  I also – you learn how to allow and forgive the humanity.  Like, I don’t know if you heard, but I just closed the door to where I’m speaking from because my husband and daughter are playing in the other room and you know, working from home, sometimes this stuff happens.  And, people, clients can hear sometimes, background noise.  So, we own that sometimes disturbances can come up and if we’re fully transparent and if we don’t make it weird you know, it’s not weird for them.  So, a lot of it is – there’s no other way to say it other than on the spot training.  But the great…

Christine:        I do.  I do.  So, I have a fairly large corporate organizational practice.  So, we’ll do – I will go to offices, corporate offices and we’ll talk in conference rooms.  So, I have facility with both models.

Clay:                But, I love that from the very beginning that they really force you to connect over technology medium; phone or internet or whatever.

Christine:        Yeah, well they – you know, they say that for some folks that there’s a breakthrough – and if you need me to kind of breakdown whatever the jargon/lingo stuff you know…

Clay:                Go on and explain that.

Christine:        Okay.  So, a breakthrough is a shift in thinking or shift in mindset that allows for greater possibilities or basically options or choices around creating a life, creating a project or business or whatever it is that you’re up to.  So, it’s literally breaking through the block or the obstacle; so, we just call it a breakthrough.  So, part of the decision – some of it is geographical, some of it is circumstantially based.  Like, I got clients in Hawaii and Asia and Europe.  So, clearly I’m not going to meet them.  For folks who are local, we often come to conversation – I almost always do the initial session by remote because, you know, time and – basically, time and money.  But also, it sets up the nature of the relationship.  Right, unless somebody asks specifically to meet in person, I generally will say, “I start off on the phone and then should we decide and move forward in the relationship we can talk about the logistics of what’s next.”  And, I will also often pose the question via breakthrough.  Is it a breakthrough for that person to meet in person?  Or, is it a breakthrough for them to practice creating relationship remotely?  It’s depending on what the person is up to.  If it’s a project that’s around creating intimacy whether at work or something else, I will generally say, “Hey, great.  So, perhaps it sounds like the breakthrough is for us to meet in person.”  If there’s a breakthrough in kind of, transparency and the gradient is such that the – there is an opportunity to do it from the safety of their home; great, we can do that too.  So, I’m always look at it – when I choose the vehicle by which we meet – I’m always looking at it with my eye towards, what’s the breakthrough for the individual?  Because everything – as probably for you – everything can be therapeutic, it’s a topic for discussion; everything and every choice that a person makes in our conversation is coachable and is coaching.  So, we’ll look at the big ones – this is what I want to talk about to the little ones, like, “Hey, so, I don’t want to talk next week.  I’m going on vacation and I know I didn’t tell you…”  You know, so it’s all an opportunity.

Clay:                Alright, we kind of jumped into the deep end here; let’s go back for a minute.

Christine:        Yeah, sorry.

Clay:                How did you get drawn into coaching?  And, what drew you to this helping medium?

Christine:        So, yeah.  So, it’s kind of a funny story.  Basically, I got into coaching because somebody told me I was bossy.

Clay:                Okay.  I’m not surprised by that.

Christine:        Yeah.  Thanks!  Yeah, well, what happened was, was that I’m an older parent, right.  So, I had my child like, late in life.  And, she is a she.  So, my only child happens to be a girl.  And, kind of after I got through the first year of sleep deprivation; the torture that is the first year.  I started to look around at my life and really wonder kind of, who did I want to be for her?  Because my parents were certainly – and I know a lot of people’s parents are – but, they’re the type of parents that say, “You can do it.  Have anything as long as you work hard enough.”  And then, they go work some crappy job because of the mortgage and tuition and all the other stuff.  And so, you know, as a child, what are you really learning?  What’s being modeled for you of what’s possible in the world?  What’s possible to human being where your limitations are?  So, I didn’t want to be that for my daughter.  And, a friend of mine – when I told a friend of mine she was like, “Oh, you should be a life coach because you’re bossy.”  I’m like, “Okay.”  But then, I – what happened was I didn’t really – so, I Google-ed some life coaching training program; I knew that I wanted to be accredited, to have some sort of credibility.  Accredited by the International Coach Federation.  And, I wanted it to be in person because it seemed to me, you know, if this is a helping profession that helps people, why would you avoid being with people?  You know.  So, I found three programs and only one responded to my inquiry which kind of sealed the deal for me, like a very silly way.  Yeah, and so, signed on scene, I joined the program and it was really – it really wasn’t until the third month of the training – it was a year-long program – it really wasn’t until the third month that I realized, “Oh, I really do want to do this.  Oh, I’m actually pretty good at this.  Oh, here’s what I’m really here for.”  Like, this is – as a coach what I do is really the integration of all the different parts of who I’ve been kind of professionally throughout my life and coaching was just one great way to, as silly as it sounds, have it all.  I worked in non-profits – well, I worked in non-profits.  I had run a theatre and film company.  I was really, you know, I’ve gone to graduate school.  So, I was curious.  I had a bent towards creation, like artistic creation and that was my main focus in having a job and making money was a life of service, having worked in non-profits.  And, all three of those are the kind of, commitments and the tenants that I stick to when I coach people.  Because every coach has a different personality, every coach has different commitments that they hold and these happen to be mine.  And so, I get to coach people who fall into that kind of sphere, you know.  Yeah, so I get to have time with my daughter.  I get to work from home.  I get to work with amazing people; remotely and in person.  So, it’s not like I’m just stuck in my dark, New York, small apartment, you know.

Clay:                So then, so many people that I know of and I’m a huge advocate for life coaching and you know that.  There are a lot of people that would say, “I’m gonna go be a coach and I’m gonna hang out my shingle.”  You, however – one, you’ve got an accredited program; you got the training, maybe even a natural talent and certainly, your history bringing to the table.  But you have created quite a successful practice and can you talk a little bit about how you were able to you know, rise above the field and actually do this – and this is your full-time job?

Christine:        It is.  I think the International Coach Federation puts out these global studies every three to five years talking about the state of the industry and I think the thing, Clay, that you’re referring to is the statistic that most coaches are out of the business after two, three years.  Yeah, they’re usually out because they can’t sustain an income and coaches that are still coaches, generally, the average global salary tends to be really low but this also factors in “part-time” coaches.  So, I would say that there’s no easy answer to, “How does one create a successful coaching business?”  I would say part of it’s in the training, right.  People who are experts in their field, they can coach, but it’s not coaching necessarily – how I refer to coaching or how I relate to coaching.  They can coach but it’s not the industry standard.  So, it doesn’t take away from their value, it’s just not the same thing.  So, I would say that the, probably the biggest assets to success are like anything else, you know, a lot of therapist probably experience this as well, part of it is simply providing quality service, you know.  Being… yeah, yeah.  And not, so not thinking that – oh, if this person goes to a therapist like they’ve abandoned me or you know, they don’t believe in coaching or whatever.  I’m actually a big proponent of coaching and therapy work really great together because there’s a whole bunch of stuff that therapeutic that I don’t touch with a 10 foot pole.  And, you could never pay me enough money to touch with a 10 foot pole, simply because I just don’t have the facility or the training for it.  So, I’m always happy when I hear people doing dual services.  So, partly not seeing other service providers as competition but as support structures and assets.  Secondly, believing – like you said – believing in the service that you do provide and understanding what it is and what it isn’t.  Right, then the last one I would say is just personal integrity.

              

Christine:        Right – having, like for me a fundamental aspect to a successful coaching practice is having your life work; because you can’t be looking to get hired if you have so much debt or if you’re hiding an addiction or if you’re whatever.  If you’re life doesn’t work, that stuff, it seeps through.  I mean, you must experience this similar this in the therapeutic arena.  Like you can only operate on some of this stuff for so long.  So, the idea of personal integrity and having – and look, nobody’s life is ever 100% handled, but personal integrity to have your life fully supported and all of the ways that you were talking about with your clients.  Right, having walked the walk and no, you’re not standing in their shoes, you don’t know how it is for them, but you know, if you don’t actually practice what you preach that’s a harder argument to make and really be impactful around.

Clay:                Yeah, absolutely.  So, okay, this is some really good place – when I think of the listeners out there who may be listening – certainly, getting your house in order, believing in your service, getting the right training – any other tips?  Like, more logistical tips; get a website, make sure you’re listed over here, networking?

Christine:        Yeah, website.  List yourself on – don’t spend money everywhere.  Like, you need a basic webpage so that people know that you’re alive.  I prefer, the two websites that have given me the most traffic are Psychology Today Online – and for a life coach you just need to have a professional affliction.  So, I’m a member of the International Coach Federation and I’m certified through them – I’m credentialed through them, apologies.  I’m credentialed through them so that qualifies.  I also list myself on NewMe, which is a life coach directory out of Vancouver, Canada.  Don’t be afraid to talk about what you do, right.  Network the crap – basically I had the first breakthrough in my business when I talked to every single one of my friends.  Not for them to hire me, because if you’re interested in being a coach, do not coach your friends or your family, especially not your spouse because that will get you in trouble.  Don’t do it.  Don’t even think about it.   Don’t even practice there.  But, really putting it out there that this is something that you believe in, that you’re leveraging your community to spread the word for you because, you know, you can’t do it alone.  Right, so from that place, set a goal to set up three conversations a day.  Like, here’s what I’m doing, here’s what I’m looking for etcetera and so on.  Who do you know?  And, I didn’t – sometimes I made it, sometimes I did more, sometimes I did less.  But, that jumpstarted the ability to get – it’s really funny right because I had this thing about calling myself a life coach at first.  I was like, I do this thing.  So, that’s the other thing, if you’re weird about your style, there’s no way.  You like, own that you’re a life coach.  If you’re a life coach, own it.  But, yeah, so, talk to everybody you know and there’s probably a breakthrough for most people in doing that.  So, I also train coaches through my former training program and that’s generally the big thing.  People feel like they need to get it right, have the right message and have their marketing all clear; you don’t need any of that.  You just need to know really clear on what you want to do and start talking to people because the message will become developed.  And, if you have those commitments of what you’re here for and what you’re willing to – what you’re here to create in people’s lives.  The rest will just flow.

Clay:                A clear purpose and not so much ready, aim, fire but ready, fire, aim.

Christine:        Yes.

Clay:                Okay, alright.  So, do you – and I hear a lot about making sure you have a niche, making sure you have, this is my sweet spot of clients – do you have a niche?

Christine:        I have developed one over time.  I have – So, I coach a lot of people on a lot of different things.

Christine:        You’re on a popular block there.  Yeah, so, I work with people – I generally work with people in technology start-ups.  I work with people who have creative meanings essentially.  So, you may not be an artist and generally you’re not an artist but you’re a lawyer or a doctor or a designer or tech-er who has a creative meaning.  So, that means you pivot quickly, you’re flexible, you’re adaptive, you’re a little against the grain and whatever that means for your particular industry.  You’re willing to take risks.  Yeah, you’re willing to go create because the creation in itself is as amazing as the result that you’ll create.  Whether it’s a new job or a particular team or a business or whatever.

Clay:                Interesting kind of population that you target because I’ve heard of coaching saying like, “I coach in advertising field,” or “I coach single moms over 40,” that type of thing.  Really, really specific, but, you’re kind of speaks to their heart and to their approach to life.

Christine:        Yeah, it’s funny.  Another way of looking at it is that I coach people that don’t think coaching is a real thing.  Right, they become converts after working with me and it’s usually like I’m the last resort for some big issue in their life of something.  But, I think a part that appeals to this is because I sound like a real person, you know.  You know, I don’t talk from this like jargon-y place about blah, blah, blah, blah.  And, because I really give a hoot about what’s going on.  You know, because of my commitment to service and creation is so powerful and it’s driven me for so long you know, again, coming back to the integrity piece.  Like, my life is handled so I can go be this thing with them.

Clay:                You know has there been something that has not worked for you?  It’s like okay; you know being a small business owner, an entrepreneur starting out there.  Was there something like wow – here’s something to avoid.

Christine:        Yeah.  So, trying things on or purchasing services for – how do I put this?  So, I would say anything that’s out of alignment with your commitments.  So, I’ve like, you know I’ve signed up with these like, “Build an email marketing list,” or you know, “Build your major businesses.”  I’ve done like that intro, 35 dollars seminar session you know, and a lot of that is really interesting information but to be perfectly frank because it was so out of the sphere of kind of where I like to play, where – no so much comfortable but it’s just not how I choose to build my business.  Like, I don’t want to be some nameless, faceless voice on an email thread.  But, it’s interesting and I have done it but that’s not where (inaudible @26:34).

Clay:                Right, I’ve seen that has been – having the email, not so much spam but those contacts, newsletters.  That can work but you’re saying that it just wasn’t what felt right for you.

Christine:        Right, exactly.  I’ve got a colleague who has like several hundred thousand person email list and that’s how he wants to build his business.  But, he’s also coach-trained but he’s not a coach.  Like, his real goal is to be a motivational speaker, an author and basically to talk at people.  So, it’s perfect right?  This is how he builds his business and it totally fits the model of who he is and what he’s up to and where he’s going.  For me, not so much.  So, in looking at that – like I have this idea, I’ve been really toying with a holiday special, right and how to – because my income has come to such a level I really  want to begin to get back to some of that non-profit service, philanthropic kind of roots.  Creating a group coaching experience – because I tried this right, I’m going to do a group coaching experience for artist, for moms or whatever; for people who want to quit their day jobs because I did.  But, it all sounds very flat because it was like, “Oh, here’s a cool thing to do.”  But, I’m really toying this time around with an iteration where it’s, “Hey it’s a group coaching experience for people who want to expand the capacity of their lives,” and whatever that means for them.  And they’re a group of people who are going to come together to support this non-profit, it’s called (Geamini? @ 28:13).  And it’s Swahili for “believe in yourself.”  And, it basically takes incredibly poor children in Tanzania and provides them an education.  It’s really small, it’s incredibly niche but it’s – these are kids for whom they may get to the school after walking several miles and there’s no teacher.  But, they’ll go there and do rouge because they care about their education so much.  And, the thing about being in America is that even the poorest communities have a lot of services.

Clay:                Right, sure.

Christine:        They may not work very well, but the services are there.  And so, being able to share – I mean the idea of (Geamini? @29:00) for example is expansion; we’re expanding the possibility for these children who have no possibility.  And, for individuals, and Americans, and whoever wants to participate; but to expand their ability to make a difference in their world and to put together like a picture book of like different kinds of careers or how to do something like make impact in a small way but meaningful for these kids who don’t have very much.  Like, it seems more intuitive and intrinsic and aligns with who I am.  So, my guess is that this is going to be – and I know this, that I’m going to do a different marketing outreach for it than just, “Hey, it’s on Facebook.”  So, the more that any “business idea” that you come up with, the more that it’s aligned with your personal values and commitments than you’re likely to make it a success versus just throw it out there because this is what you’re supposed to do in business,

Clay:                Wow, that’s – yeah.  And, that is just so you.  I know enough about you, it just makes sense.

Christine:        Yeah, but it like totally clicks right?  As opposed to, “I’m going to do a group coaching for people who want to quit their job.”

Clay:                Many therapists will have like a pro-bono or a sliding scale fee or you know, set aside certain slots so that I can do free therapy.  And, sometimes that’s good.  I do that but this just sounds like so much more impactful and something that you buy-in to on a deeper level.

Christine:        Yeah, which is what people are coming to me for; that very seismic shift in how they approach their life so as to create a different future.  And then, to be able to do that and have this project.  And I don’t have any idea what the project would be because I think it would be up to the group to create the project, whether it be a text or video or something, right.  Like, have that be a part of it and not only get the satisfaction that they’ve made a difference for themselves, they’ve made a difference for people god knows what’s gonna happen to them, right.  At the very least, have it be different for that small village in Tanzania.

Clay:                Fascinating.  This is one of the reasons I love doing this podcast is I get to see how people are impacting the world in their way that touches their heart and that touches the world in return.  And, the great thing about having the online ability is that your audience is so much bigger than who is in your immediate area that can drive to your office and sit and talk with you.

Christine:        Oh, absolutely.  I mean that’s the great thing, right?  I’m expecting the group experience to be completely virtual via video conference and I don’t expect it to be local New Yorkers.  I actually expect it, given my network, that it’s going to be people around the world.  And, the tough part will be planning a time for everybody to meet that isn’t obnoxious for anybody.  But, I’m actually anticipating that, right.

Clay:                So, that does bring up a point a lot of people have talked about and I want to be cognizant of your time but just kind of wrapping things up.  The idea of, because you’re dealing with different cultures, different approaches to life – has that been a challenge for you?  Dealing with someone from Saudi Arabia or Mexico or the UK even, there similarities but, there’s differences.  Has that been a challenge for you?

Christine:        You know, it’s not been so far.  Part of it is that you know, I use my American-ness on purpose.  But, so in conversation I’ll be like, “Hey, so I’m gonna be very American in a moment.”  And, they start laughing right.  So, it’s not like I lay down.  So, part of it is being responsible for who you are but not just like, I’m gonna say this thing like you know what it is, right?  Like, I’ll use very American idioms and I’ll follow up with, “Do you actually know what it means?”  And, explain it and see what they get from it.  But, internationally, it’s actually been very great because there’s a lot more similarities than differences when – if you talk about the stuff but like, oh you have to do it this way and that way and blah, blah, blah; absolutely major differences.  When you actually talk about the way of being that people have, basic relationship to themselves and feeling bad and feeling good – and to be clear, I’m only putting it that way for this podcast, we don’t actually talk about feelings in coaching – but, you know, if they feel that it’s a healthy relationship to self or they generally are beating themselves up, that stuff is universal, right.  And, people see the connected threads you know, of humanity that breaks down kind of the cultural barriers.  So, if I was just like, “Hey, you need to go out and not wear a headdress.”  Crazy!  I would never in a million years; that’s just – but to talk about how to be powerful in the face of feeling trapped that’s an experience that anybody can relate to, right.  So, we focus on what shifts are necessary to create that power no matter what circumstances have dictate.  But, it’s up to them to decide.  So, that’s the other thing, I don’t have to be the expert in their culture or in their life.  They’re the expert, I’m simply providing – I’m a mirror, right.  Like, I present them a picture of what they’re doing and how different it is from where they’re sitting at.

Clay:                And I have talked with several other therapists that are dealing with this cultural issue and they agree with what you are saying.  Is that you put it on the table, you say, this is a thing we’re going to know the thing is there.  I’m an American this is my approach and we’re going to work through it together.  I’m not going to make the assumption that you’re going to understand what I’m saying whether I’m going to understand what you’re saying.  But we’re going to look at this elephant in the room, kind of work around it and kind of modeling that communication and connection.  Okay, so again, I want to be – you’re incredibly busy and I thank you so much for spending some time.  But, I also want to make sure that people can know about you.  So, there’s a couple things that I know about you is that you’re an advocate of accomplishment coaching which is your training program, right.  You’re a part of the mentoring coach and leadership program, right?

Christine:        Yes, I lead the New York.  So, there’s two programs.  We train coaches in two cycles, one that starts in February and one that starts in August.  And, I actually am the program leader in the February program.

Clay:                Excellent, oh, look at you.

Christine:        Yeah, look at me.

Clay:                So then now, let’s say somebody is listening to this and want to get in touch with you about your approaching services.  Why don’t you tell people about that – how can – tell us about your website and how to get in touch with you.

Christine:        Cool.  So, best way to get in touch with me is by text – believe it or not – and my number is 917-825-6878.  But, other than that, I’m always connected because I love my email and my email is Christine, C-H-R-I-S-T-I-N-E, @christinesachscoaching.com.  And, Sachs as in Golden Sachs, S-A-C-H-S, coaching.com.

Clay:                coaching.com.  Okay, I’m going to put that in the show notes as well as, I’ll get the website for accomplishment coaching will be there as well.

Christine:        Awesome.

Clay:                I can’t thank you enough for just kind of showing a bit of who you are and telling us a little bit about your story.  So, thank you very much.

Christine:        Thanks for having me.

Clay:                Goodnight.

Christine:        Goodnight.