Episode 39 – Dr. Mona Ghosheh, PdD Online Therapist from Texas

online counseling podcast promo

 

Clay Cockrell: Hello and welcome to the Online Counseling Podcast, where we explore the world of online therapists who are meeting with their clients through technology. My name is Clay Cockrell, and I’m your host. Today is March 14th, 2017, Happy Pi Day, and I am freshly home from a month in Miami and currently sitting in New York with a blizzard. So that little sound you may hear in the background is ice pellets hitting the window, and maybe some thunder snow. Not sure why I’m still… Why I’m not still in Miami. The whole time I was down there, New York had 60 and 70 degree weather and now I’m home and I’ve got a blizzard, go figure. But I’m very glad you have chosen to spend a little time with us today. I’m really excited about today’s guest, but before we get to that I wanted to let you know that we are continuing our discount for online therapists using yearly memberships at the online therapy directory. So if you are a new listener, this podcast is associated with a listing directory, which you can find at onlinecounselling.com. And it’s very similar to Psychology Today. Online therapists list their practices and specialties and our entire goal is to bring clients to you. But we also do a lot of education on the ethics and legality of online therapy and Telemental Health with the hopes of growing not just your practice, but the field in general.

 

CC: And we recently launched a discount that if you sign up for a year-long membership you will end up paying just $12.47 cents a month, which is a 50% discount from the month-to-month plan, which is still available at $24.95 cents a month. So, two plans to get you started. Check us out at onlinecounselling.com. And today we are making another big announcement. This comes with a little story. So for a long time, I’ve been hearing from the members of the directory, and from other mental health professionals regarding their concern about the increasing in anxiety that people are feeling all over the world related to political changes that we’ve all gone through. If you think about it, we were all in a state of worry for the past couple of years. This thing’s been building. Watching the chaotic US election, 24 hour news coverage for the nomination process, and then the general election. I remember working with my clients about how they were going to go home for Thanksgiving. This is a year, year-and-a-half ago, and how they were gonna deal with family members with different political ideas?

 

CC: So this has been going on for a while, people losing friends on Facebook, fights at work, and then the general election comes and the surprise victory of Donald Trump, and it seems to have only gotten worse from there through the transition and now just about a month-and-a-half into the new Presidency, people are feeling a lot of anxiety about the future. The press has even given it a name, Trump Anxiety. They’re great about naming things aren’t they? But it’s just not the US. We have Brexit in the UK and France now is dealing with similar election anxiety. This is a world-wide phenomenon of increased fear. And first let me say that this is not an anti-Trump project, we are announcing there is anxiety on both sides of the political spectrum. I have liberal clients who feel like we are headed toward chaos and fascism, and I have conservative clients who are feeling incredibly disrespected and angry. So, we’ve come up with an idea to address this, it’s called the anti-political anxiety campaign. And last week, I emailed the members of the directory asking them to volunteer, to give two free anti-anxiety sessions to anyone who’s suffering from this.

 

CC: It’s completely voluntary, there’s no obligation, it’s just a chance to give back to the world and perhaps eliminate some of the fear out there in a small way. And we all have little slots in our schedule where we either have sliding scale fees or free sessions for people who can’t afford it. This is a way to use maybe some of those times to help out people who are struggling with anxiety related to political change. And I’ve been overwhelmed at the response. We now have a huge number of online therapists on the directory, who are volunteering their time to help out. So if you are a member, and want to volunteer some of your time, please email me. The address is [email protected]. We will put you on the list, you’ll be volunteering to do two 45 minute sessions to as many people as you want to help, one person, five people, 10, whatever, and you get to schedule them the way it’s convenient for you. And I’m not really seeing this as “therapy,” it’s more educational, coaching, giving some basic coping skills and techniques to help people get through a difficult time. And therefore, since it’s not really psychotherapy, the state-to-state issues are not going to apply here. And we’re gonna really look at this as coaching and educational and be national and international in how the people are gonna contact this list of volunteering therapists.

 

CC: So let me know what you think, we would love to have you be part of the project. Now, on to today’s guest, who is part of the series where we are interviewing members of the online therapy directory. Her name is Dr. Mona Ghosheh, and she is a therapist in Texas with a 100% online practice that is very mobile. She’s all over the state. So, I’m really proud about this interview, we looked into a lot of the questions that people have, marketing, lighting, platforms, the challenges, the ups, the downs, we talked about it all. I hope you enjoy.

 

CC: Hello and welcome, I am very excited to have as a guest on the show today. This is continuing really the series of interviewing members of the online therapy directory and learning about their practices and how they’re doing. And today, I’m happy to welcome Dr. Mona Ghosheh from Texas. Mona, how are you?

 

Dr Mona Ghosheh: Hi Clay, thank you for having me.

 

CC: Absolutely. Now, remind me where in Texas are you?

 

DG: I’m located in Austin.

 

CC: Austin.

 

DG: Live music capital.

 

CC: I can imagine… Isn’t that where they have “Keep Austin Weird,” the…

 

DG: Oh, yeah. [laughter] We started it.

 

[laughter]

 

CC: I love that. I’ve had friends that recently visited there and my wife and I’ve talked about going down. It’s just, I think a unique little enclave within the greater Texas world.

 

DG: It is, it is, there’s so much culture and life and fun.

 

CC: Ah, I love it and warm weather.

 

DG: Yes.

 

[laughter]

 

CC: Well, I’m in the middle of a blizzard, so, just take that into account.

 

[laughter]

 

DG: I’ll send some your way.

 

CC: Thank you. We need it. After we talk, I go and I shovel round two out in front of my house. [chuckle] So, Mona, tell me a little bit about briefly your journey into becoming an online therapist and what drew you to this line of work?

 

DG: Yeah, that’s such a great question. I actually start when folks ask me that, just recognizing, I didn’t even know what a counselor was honestly growing up, or what a psychologist was. I come from a family background… I’m Arab-American, and in my culture seeking out mental health services is just not part of what we do when you’re needing some help or if there’s mental health concerns that are coming up. So, I wasn’t familiar with the mental health field. I actually went to school to be a pediatrician, that’s what I had in mind. And as I was going to school, I was… I kinda got to this fork in the road and was trying to figure out, “Is this what I really wanna do?” And somehow, some way, this light bulb moment happened for me, where I remember taking those career inventories in high school. I don’t know if you did that growing up.

 

CC: Yeah.

 

DG: Yeah. And I remember every time I would do that the first thing that would come up would be counselor, and I’d get so mad, [laughter] and take the test and throw it in the trash. But somehow in that moment, it just… It was a light bulb for me and I was curious like, “Wow, maybe this is something,” I recognized that people do seek me out, my friends, my family, and so, I explored that some more and pursued school counseling. Again, because that was what I was familiar with, my high school counselor…

 

CC: Oh, right.

 

DG: That’s who I engaged with, and so, I thought, “Oh, I could do that.” And so I pursued a master’s in school counseling, and lo and behold, that program was actually housed in a Counseling Psychology Doctoral Program. So I was taking classes along with the doctoral students and learning about counseling psychology in the process and I was like, “No, this is what I wanna do.”

 

[chuckle]

 

CC: Aah.

 

DG: Because even when I was thinking about going into high school, working with high school kids, I was thinking about all of the mental health programming that I wanted to do, and workshops and counseling. And when it really comes down to high school, what’s happening there is more of like college prep, and getting folks kinda ready for conceptualizing their careers and what they wanna pursue. And that wasn’t lining up exactly with all of what I imagined. And so, I found that in the counseling psychology field, and so, I got my doctorate in that.

 

CC: Wonderful. So then…

 

DG: Yeah.

 

CC: So now you’ve completed your program, how did you… Let’s take just a few minutes and talk about those first work experiences, and then what led you into private practice?

 

DG: Yeah. And it’s all like a long stream of thought. [chuckle] In the moment when I look back… You know, in the… During all of those instances, I was… It just seemed like I was taking all of these left turns, but looking back, it just feels like it all connected. When I was in my doctoral program, I was really interested in serving students of color in a college level. And because of how that was relevant to me, like I was telling you, I didn’t even realize what a counselor does, or all the value that’s there, and how to be able to provide that and make that bridge to communities that don’t necessarily use those services. And so, I was really interested in that, specialized in prevention and outreach. And wanted to work with the young adults, and so, I had a string of experiences working in the college counseling center setting, and that was my most recent position. I worked at a large university here in Austin and loved everything that I did, I loved working with the students.

 

DG: But one of the things that I ran into is that on the college counseling center setting, the services are brief, they’re short-term. I was meeting with students anywhere from four to six sessions, and so, very often students are needing more, they’re… Especially if they have… Are experiencing a depressive episode or have some trauma, they’re gonna need some specialized treatment, or need something that’s a little bit more extensive. And so, I was referring people out frequently, but running into barriers. Students are not always comfortable leaving campus, they might not have transportation, even if they are motivated to meet with a provider off campus, they were maybe traveling a lot, ’cause they would be in Austin for the semester and then go home all summer, which is in a rural town. And then the following semester they’d be studying abroad, so [chuckle] even when we got them connected, they weren’t meeting with that person consistently to get the treatment that they needed.

 

CC: I kinda see where this is going.

 

DG: Yeah, yeah. And I started to look for online therapists for them, but just kinda drew a blank. And I got really curious about it, I started researching it more and then my curiosity led to this place of, “Hey, maybe I could do this and it could supplement my work, where I could have some longer term clients while I’m working with college students on brief model.”

 

CC: Yeah. And I hear so many people say that they initially began because the clients are asking for it, or they just saw that the clients are… This is the only way that their clients were gonna be able to access services was through Telemental Health, and particularly university clients, because of the travel, because of their schedule, and the tremendous amount of need that 18 to 22 plus years old people are dealing with a lot of crisis. There’s a suicidal epidemic out there, there’s a lot of change going on and a lot of stress and anxiety. So, the need is there. And it just seems like you say, you saw the need and said, “I’m going to start my own private practice and see where that goes,” is that right?

 

DG: Exactly, exactly.

 

CC: So it’s interesting, you started 100% online therapy, the idea of, this is where you ultimately wanted to end, you wanted an online practice, so you started with that focus, right?

 

DG: Yes, yes. Well… And I was in a position too where I had a full-time 40-plus hour job and I was like, “Okay, I want to do an online therapy practice, and this would simplify it for me too where I didn’t have to think about getting a brick and mortar office. And the way I conceptualized the private practice when I was coming at it from like, “This is an online practice, looks different from A to Z,” so I think it simplified it for me, and it fit well with where I was career-wise.

 

CC: Good, good, good, good. So then, when did you transition to full-time private practice?

 

DG: See this is the interesting journey of life. [chuckle] So I’ve been in my practice now for over a year and was really enjoying it and working with some really interesting cases, and having some great experiences, helping people make that link, and have that connection to services where they would otherwise not have that treatment. And I, in my personal life, kinda came up against some challenges where I was having some things coming up with my family. My family… I have folks living in Houston and Dallas and all of last year doing a lot of traveling to attend to things that were coming up. And eventually things came to a head, where I had to make a decision about how much I needed to spend more time with them. And having some conversations with my family and my partner and decided, you know what, this practice, my online practice was not intended for this reason, but it was kind of this blessing in disguise of, wow, I could maybe pursue this and do this full time and it would allow me to be with my family right now, just given the circumstances that I’m in. And so, I was really sad to leave the university job, but it’s been an amazing experience just to explore this and kinda taking this as… I don’t know where this is gonna take me, but let’s see where this goes and let’s embrace it 100%. So it’s just… It’s been amazing in terms of allowing me to have the flexibility, and…

 

CC: That’s incredible. It’s really fortuitous in the timing then, that as you needed to be on the road and traveling to meet family needs, you could take your practice with you and still have an income, still grow a business, while attending to, sounds like some pretty serious family issues.

 

DG: Right, yeah. I did not plan it that way and it’s just worked out so well.

 

CC: And there’s really no other way you could have done that. I don’t know Texas very well, but I think that Houston and Austin, that’s some pretty heavy travel.

 

DG: Oh yeah, yeah, Dallas is like three, three-and-a-half hour drive. So it was getting pretty draining to do that on a regular basis.

 

CC: So, okay. So, tell us a little bit about you setting up your practice, being mobile, what are some things that you considered… Let’s talk about platforms, let’s talk about just the nuts and bolts of creating an online practice.

 

DG: Yes. So, I really from the very beginning… And maybe this is my process of how I approach new projects, is I wanted to know all that I can about online therapy and the different setups that were out there. And so I did a little bit of research on several platforms. So there’s… I know I experimented a little bit with VC and some other options that are out there, and came across Doxy.me. I don’t know if you’ve heard about that one. And I really… And I felt drawn to it, just the way that it looks. Again, I specialize in my private practice with young adults, because that’s been my area of focus all along. I found that Doxy.me looked aesthetically appealing, or appeasing, similar to the iPhone or Apple setup…

 

CC: It’s the clean look.

 

DG: Clean look, and that in and of itself was like, “This is gonna fit my clientele.” The other piece that drew me to the Doxy.me was that it… You didn’t have to download anything. And so, I was thinking about the frontend of me talking through with clients how to… The process of online counseling, what they needed to do on their end, and it just took an extra step out for me with that.

 

CC: I like that. [chuckle] And for those of you that are listening and maybe got a little lost there, because I did initially when I started looking into this, that there really are two different types of online therapy platforms out there. One is where you and your client need to download some Applet company and install it on your computer, and then, you’re able to connect in a HIPAA compliant encrypted online room. And then there are those like Doxy.me, where it’s really seamless. You just send your client a link and say, “Click on this link,” and they immediately are… A new window opens up, and they’re taken to this encrypted HIPAA compliant online virtual room where you can see and hear one another. Now, did I describe that fairly accurately?

 

DG: That’s… Yes, exactly.

 

CC: It’s just cleaner and easier that way. Because I agree with you, when you’re talking with a new client, maybe they’ve never done Telemental Health and they’ve just… It’s like, “Come on, let’s just do Skype, Skype’s easy,” and…

 

DG: Yeah.

 

CC: And trying to take them through the process of, “Okay, go here, click on this, download this to your computer or tablet and then install it.” It’s just complicated sometimes.

 

DG: It felt more confidential too. Like I was thinking about clients who might be using a computer that they share with a partner or a child or something like that, if they see that the program is downloaded on there, I didn’t know… I mean, it would be an added conversation of how do you communicate that with the people in your home, or that are using your computer?

 

CC: That’s a good point, that’s a good point. So you went with Doxy.me. Now, is there a fee associated with that?

 

DG: No. Well, there are different services that you can add on that would be for an additional fee, like, there’s screen sharing and there’s document sharing and things like that, that I think would be really cool. I haven’t needed that just yet, but if you did wanna add those features, I think they’re an additional cost. But the basic, just video conferencing with the waiting room is free and it includes the BAA.

 

CC: I was gonna ask about that, because I saw on a… I don’t know if it was Selling The Couch, or one of these wonderful forums that are out there that they said that it was either Doxy.me or Zoom, said it’s free, but if you want the business associate agreement, which makes it… Makes you compliant with HIPAA, then you have to pay $200 a month or something. So, I’m glad you’re clearing that up. That’s not the case with Doxy.me, you do get your Business Associate Agreement from them with the free platform.

 

DG: Correct, correct.

 

CC: Okay, that’s good, good, good to know.

 

DG: Yeah.

 

CC: Okay. And any kind of little glitches or does it seem pretty seamless?

 

DG: I think the program is pretty seamless. I’ve definitely experienced glitches, but I think that that’s just the nature [chuckle] of doing Telehealth.

 

CC: Yeah.

 

DG: So I can speak more to that if you’re curious.

 

[laughter]

 

CC: I think that we’re all gonna expect that every once in a while there’s gonna be, the sound is a little off, or maybe you have to turn the camera off in order to boost the signal. A lot of people talk about a plan B and I do that with my clients. It’s like, “Look, if the Internet is really bad, let’s have a cell phone available so that we can continue this.” And this is interesting, sometimes when the audio is not good, I’ll turn the audio off on my platform and keep the video on, and then we talk to each other over the phone and it’s just the same, but that allows the connection to go a little better. So that’s kinda one of those plan B, plan C, how do we work around some of the little wonkiness of some of the technology?

 

DG: Right. And I’ve actually used that too, and I love that option, because sometimes with the video there’s a little bit of a delay, and so, I’m not always capturing what they’re saying in that moment, if that makes sense?

 

CC: Mm-hmm.

 

DG: So, when I have them over the phone and I’m hearing what they’re saying, we’re having the conversation as fluid, even though visually there might be some times where they freeze for a moment or two. And then the video picks up, so that we don’t have to necessarily stop our process or it happens… I don’t know if this is your experience, it seems like in the most important insightful moments, the deepest moment they’re telling you something so important that that’s the moment where the video decides to stop.

 

CC: Right, right. That has happened to me. And that actually can be a moment of levity and…

 

DG: Yeah.

 

CC: Not to move past it. I know there’s a lot of online therapists out there, who, “No, you don’t wanna move past that.” I’m not saying moving past the moment sitting with the client, but it does kinda bring some levity every once in a while too to the session, to kinda roll with what’s happening. Okay, so, yes, there’s some glitchy stuff going on there. Tell me a little bit… Anything else that maybe we should be considering when you are starting the practice, particularly maybe as mobile as you are, what are some considerations and things that you’ve learned?

 

DG: You know, I… When I was meeting with people in person I thought a lot about the space, how my office was decorated? What I had on my desk? What books were visible or not visible? I realized over time that clients make meaning from those things, whether you intended to or not. And so, just being really thoughtful about that is important, because it’s… You’re creating that ambience and helping them become ready for the deep work. And so, I try to translate that into the online world. It’s harder, because the client is creating that space for themselves, but nevertheless, what they’re seeing on their screen, they’re not just seeing me, I want them to get a feel for something a little bit more, to make sure that I’m communicating that professionalism, that not allowing kinda my background to be a distraction.

 

DG: And so, I’ve thought a lot about the lighting, where my desk and computer is located and especially, I ran into this, as I’ve been mobile, like I was telling you, traveling a lot to Houston and Dallas to be with family, I can’t take my home office with me. [chuckle] I could take my laptop and my webcam, but where that’s set up, it hasn’t been as straightforward as I maybe thought, wanting to make sure that I’m in a space where I don’t have the kitchen in the background or you know… I don’t know, just some random furniture or something like that. And really being thoughtful about where the space is, making sure… Especially if I’m gonna be staying with family, making sure that no one is home and arranging the schedule. So, there’s a lot of thought that goes into it to make sure that I’m maintaining the confidentiality and maintaining that ambiance and that sense of space where people can do that work. There’s a lot of thought going into this when starting online therapy.

 

CC: It’s so important, so important. Because they are… They’re in taking a lot of information. They’re gonna be staring at you for 45 to 50 minutes, and they don’t want to stare at dirty laundry in the background.

 

DG: Right. Right. [laughter] I felt that it helps me too. When I’m in a certain space, it’s like I notice that my body and my energy shifts to, “Okay, I’m in work mode now. I have my psychologist hat, I don’t have my sister hat or my daughter hat, I have my professional hat on,” and creating that space for myself has helped in that transition.

 

CC: Absolutely. Now, you mentioned lighting and that’s a question that I get a lot. Any tips with lighting?

 

DG: So, I try to make sure that the light is coming from in front of me, so sometimes I use a specific light that you might see… I don’t know what it’s called exactly, but that you might see for on photoshoots or something like that.

 

CC: You know, you’ve gone high tech.

 

DG: Well, I have a little bit of an in, because my husband does professional photography on the side, so he has the equipment.

 

[chuckle]

 

CC: Okay.

 

DG: So, yes, yes, so I have the in on that. But the way that… What I know about those kinds of lights is that they’re not that expensive. And it’s just a matter of making sure… And it could be a lamp. That’s the other thing when I’ve been traveling, sometimes I’ll just take a lamp from the house and make sure that it’s right behind my computer, maybe right above the camera, so that my face is brightened as opposed to having the light behind you, then the whole screen gets darkened and you don’t want to create that kind of feel.

 

CC: Absolutely. Puts you in shadow if you’re lit from behind, there’s a… If there’s a window behind you or a lamp or something, it puts your face in darkness. And so, yeah, just to make sure that the light source is in front of you, so it’s shining on your eyes.

 

DG: Right. Exactly.

 

CC: Now, you also mentioned a webcam, so do you have any issues with eye contact? I always recommend, if you can, using a computer or laptop where the camera is built into the frame of the computer at the very top, so that you’re sort of making eye contact with your client when you’re looking at the screen and watching their eyes.

 

DG: Yes. I’ve tried different things. I went with a webcam, just for the higher quality of the picture. Again, I was really thinking about, I want them to feel like I’m right there. And so, the camera that I chose has that, like the HD quality. I’ve noticed in terms of my work, clients are rarely looking at the screen at all. Sometimes I ask them to, but they seem to look around the room a lot. I am intentional about looking at the camera directly, when I’m wanting to get something important across. I don’t know what the literature is behind this, if anyone’s researched this, but for me, I feel… I want them to really get a full sense of me in those moments where I’m really trying to communicate something important or empathize or connect in a deep way. I’ve tried… I don’t know if you’ve heard of this program where you could download it and it somehow connects with your camera, whichever one that you’re using and it follows your eyes to make it look like you’re…

 

CC: Did you… I’ve heard of this and I’ve been meaning to get them on the podcast. What… Remind me, what is the name of the… Do you remember the name of the program?

 

DG: It’s something connect, EyeConnect.

 

CC: EyeConnect.

 

DG: I’m probably getting this all wrong.

 

CC: No, I talked with them briefly. And from what they say is that this is through facial recognition software, they can figure out where your eyes are and then reposition them through their technology. So it looks like you’re always looking at the screen of the person you’re talking to.

 

DG: Yes.

 

CC: Which seems really weird, but you tried it?

 

DG: I have played around a little bit with it, but I haven’t tried it in my online therapy sessions just yet. I think I want to… I would like to kinda do a mock session with maybe a friend or a family member first [chuckle] just to see how how they experience it, before I try it out with a client. But I haven’t done that step yet.

 

CC: Okay. Well, let us know.

 

DG: I’m curious, I’m really curious.

 

CC: I’m really curious too. I’ve been meaning to look into it. It seems like a little much, you know. But let’s see, you know, maybe this is a game changer.

 

[chuckle]

 

DG: Well, the cool thing is that it does other things that might help with the mobility. So, it blurs out your background, for example. So, if you do have dirty laundry [laughter] in the back, it will solve that problem. And it does other things to make it easier for the person to focus on you and you alone.

 

CC: Yeah. Okay. So let’s pivot for just a little bit. Let’s talk about marketing for online therapy, how you have built a 100% online practice, what the journey has been like, what’s worked, what hasn’t worked? What kinda tips can you give us?

 

DG: Well, I know early on, it was really overwhelming to think about marketing, because most private practitioners and most of the information that’s online that I tried to read up on or learn more about, it’s very focused on how you market locally. So, if you’re based in Austin, it’s how do you market to the folks in Austin, and how do you get network with other professionals in the area and doing certain things that are local specific. And even in terms of blogging or your writing material, or your website, it’s very focused on the area and the zip code. But that’s harder to do when your pool or I guess, your… My clientele is all of Texas, I’m licensed in Texas, and I can work with anyone in Texas or internationally. And so, how do I do that? That was really overwhelming at first. I have now kind of started to think about it in a way of, yes, it is a local endeavor, but it’s going to be more specific to several local areas.

 

DG: So, I’m trying to build my network in Austin, I’m trying to build my network in Dallas, in Houston. And the reason why I’m approaching it this way, is because I found that the most relevant or useful referrals have been through relationships and through connections that I’ve made, yeah, through the traditional sense of networking and meeting with folks. So, it’s just thinking about it in a broader sense. So rather than just focusing on where I’m located physically it’s moving around, and maybe contacting people all across the state. Of course, that’s really… It’s a big project, but there’s a lot of opportunity too with that. You don’t have to feel limited to a certain space.

 

CC: So it’s taking some of those traditional marketing things, but using them on a wider scale. It’s still about the networking, it’s still about who you know and who knows you?

 

DG: Yes, yes.

 

CC: Okay. All right.

 

DG: That’s been my experience. And of course, I’ve been on Psychology Today and I’m now on the Online Therapy Directory, which I’m excited about.

 

CC: Yea, I am very excited about that too.

 

DG: Yeah, I’m doing some blogging and things like that, which I think help, but those have been the most potent, are the relationships.

 

CC: Something that you and any of you listeners out there might consider is create… Where is your target audience living? If it’s going to be as you say, some of these young adults and college age kids connecting with those counseling services that might be referring out, but also the expat community. There are expat services, websites out there so, that people living in Saudi Arabia, or Paris or wherever, and they need an English-speaking guitar teacher or massage therapist, or dog walker or whatever, or psychotherapist. They go to those expat websites in that local town, whether it’s Paris or Moscow or wherever, and that’s where they get a lot of their services. So I found that those can be successful and hopefully you and some of our listeners will as well.

 

DG: Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I’ll definitely explore that.

 

CC: Okay. And interesting about the young adults, what I’ve heard and has been my experience too is that they’re very comfortable with the technology, with connecting over technology. Has that been your experience as well?

 

DG: Yes, absolutely, and it’s actually so funny, because every time, especially early on, when I would run into those technological glitches, I’d be so nervous and like, “Oh no, this is going to disrupt the rapport and they’re just so… As if this is… It’s just not a big deal at all, they just… “Oh, can I just call you?” They’d come up with the solution them self.

 

[chuckle]

 

CC: Right.

 

DG: Like, yeah, let’s do that, you know? And keep on going. They’re not rattled by the technological glitches that come up from time to time. And it is very appealing when I do phone consults with people about the possibility of working together, the online piece is like, “Oh, great.” Like, “I’ve been looking for something like that or I’ve been needing something like that,” because a lot of the time for young folks, their life is functioning online, whether it’s through making appointments or finding resources online. So it feels like a very small step in that, or a link for them.

 

CC: Absolutely. And you also touched on the idea that you focus on cultural issues, and particularly servicing people of color. What’s that been like for you working multi-culturally online?

 

DG: Yeah, that’s a great question. That’s actually one of the things that’s excited me the most about online counseling. In my work previously I focused a lot on accessibility when it comes to people of color. Most communities, and not to generalize, but… And there are communities where going to meet with a mental health professional is a barrier in and of itself, because of the stigma of just getting there, of being seen in the waiting room, of being recognized by maybe some of the people at the counseling center, for example. And that in and of itself will prevent folks from considering it or even trying it. The online piece has been so cool, and allowing individuals to have anonymity and privacy and access to mental health, where they would otherwise never seek it out.

 

DG: I’m working with some people in the Middle East right now, and it’s just… It’s been so humbling of an experience to talk with people about just the fear and the stigma that’s there in the community, that even working with maybe some of the mental health professionals, they’re just concerned about, well, are they going to be accepting, are they going to be affirming of what my experiences are? Are they going to judge me? Or even the concept of confidentiality in different communities doesn’t translate in the way that we talk about it or facilitate it here in the US. And so, working with someone abroad, working with someone online has allowed people to do it in a way where they don’t have to communicate that to anyone if they don’t want to just yet or need to.

 

CC: Yeah. Yeah.

 

DG: And so, that’s been so powerful and I think it’s just barely scratching the surface of what the possibilities are out there using online therapy and counseling.

 

CC: Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. It’s… I say it all the time. It’s meeting our clients where they are, and not getting in the way of the process. The technology can be a connecting thing, which brings… I had an interesting conversation with a therapist, it’s a strictly face-to-face therapist, this week. And I mentioned that I was doing this online project and her concern was that, “I just don’t think I would be able to connect with my client in the same way that I do in a face-to-face in the office, getting all of that body language, all that information from them, sharing a private office with them.” Now, you’ve had both, you’ve worked in a college level counseling service, and now you have this online connection with your clients. Have you experienced that? Is that something that you’ve struggled with that the connection is just not the same and not as therapeutic?

 

DG: You know, I think there absolutely is a connection. And this might sound like a silly example, but people fall in love online, why wouldn’t they [laughter] be able to connect with someone on a deeper level through therapy? I think that it’s not a very far link. But in my experience there are things that are missing online that I would be experiencing in person. One thing I was thinking about recently is that I would have students coming in on crisises. It’s not all the time, but maybe they… I can smell alcohol on their breath, for example, or they haven’t been maintaining some hygiene lately. And that’s information that I can gather in person to further paint this picture of what’s happening for them and where they are with the severity of their symptoms, that I might… I wouldn’t be able to capture that online. But I am able to capture things online that I wouldn’t be able to capture if I were seeing that person in the office. For example, I’ve had people, in the way that they dress or that they sit at home, there’s a level of comfort and they’re allowing me into their space in a way that I wouldn’t have been able to achieve in person.

 

DG: The other thing that’s really neat is that sometimes we’re talking about… I have a client, recently we were talking about concerns around a recent loss. And they were able to very easily, because they’re in their home grab some pictures and be able to share that in the moment. Where had that been in person, we’d have to plan that for the next week, and then we would have lost that moment. So, there are differences in terms of the information that you’re gathering, but the connection I think is just as deep as I’ve experienced in person.

 

CC: Incredible. Well, Dr. Mona, I can’t thank you enough. This has been so informative, just talking about platforms and getting started and the challenges of being mobile and cultural issues, I look at… Hopefully, we’re getting better and better with our interviews and really pulling information out that our listeners are going to need. Certainly the idea of marketing and connecting online is going to hopefully be helpful. But thank you so much for coming on the show and I wish you all the best. And hopefully, we at the Directory are gonna bring you some new clients.

 

DG: Thank you so much, Clay, it’s been a pleasure.