Welcome to the Online Counselling Podcast. Exploring the practice of counseling through technology. Here’s your host, Clay Cockrell.
Clay Cockrell: Hello and welcome to the Online Counselling Podcast. My name is Clay Cockrell and I am your host. Thank you for spending some time with me today. The holidays are coming up and everybody’s so busy. I just want to thank you for choosing to spend some of your valuable time with me as we explore the world of online counseling. I have to say, there really is no better place, at least for me, to get in the holiday spirit than here in New York. It’s just in the air. My wife Sandy and I went to the Rockefeller Christmas tree last week and it was just incredible. We try to go every year. What happens as you’re walking down the relatively narrow street and you can hear crowds up ahead and it’s just right around the corner and then you make this turn, and this gigantic tree just explodes into view with thousands and thousands of lights. It’s really, it’s breathtaking. Wherever you are, whatever traditions you celebrate, I hope you’re enjoying this season. Thanks everyone who’s been making comments on iTunes and Facebook. I love hearing from you, your compliments, your suggestions. Keep those coming in. We have now topped over eleven thousand downloads of this podcast which is crazy to me. But thank you for all your support.
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Today we have a real treat. One of the leading, if not, the leading online counseling practice in Ireland. Is the Irish Online Counselling & Psychotherapy Service, founded by Donijka Monk and Mary McHugh. This is a group practice. A group practice of seven counselors that started, I think they started originally five years ago and has the mission of bringing professional, high quality, ethical boundaried and confidential counseling in psychotherapy, the clients wherever they may be emotional or geographically. We’re going to get into the several different ways that they can connect with their clients with chat, with phone, with audio visual. They use Skype. Remember they’re on Ireland. They’re able to use Skype as one of their platforms. They talk about the mutual support they’re able to get and really work cutting edge and some of the resistance I think we get to talk about from more traditional leaning therapists when they started. But they saw a need and they’re just big hearted and they truly have a global practice. I just love getting to know Donijka’s story of how she came to counseling and then took the lead to co-create a group practice facing her fears and jumping into the deep-in of business and counseling.
So we had a few technological glitches along the way which is par for the course with this type of work. But the audio does get better and I hope you can forgive the few little blips that we have. Because I think we got to talk about what we got to talk about is just in incredibly valuable and hopefully inspirational to our listeners who are or are thinking about starting your online counseling practice. It was certainly inspirational to me and I told Donijka I felt like I’ve got a new Irish friend. So, here we go. Welcome to Donijka Monk.
Clay: Okay! Welcome to the Online Counselling Podcast. I am thrilled today to have… This is our first Irish therapy practice on the directory and I thought it would be wonderful to have them come on the show and talk about their group practice in Ireland. Welcoming co- founder Donijka Monk of the Irish Online Counselling & Psychotherapy Service. Donijka, thank you for talking to me.
Donijka Monk: Hi! Thank you very much for inviting me.
Clay: This is a good way to talk about time differences. You are five hours ahead of me. It’s a 1:30 in the afternoon there, 8:30 in the morning here in New York. Sometimes it’s complicated to arrange those time zones with Eastern Daylights savings time and during the calculations across the Atlantic. But we did it.
Donijka: But we did it. And we find that it works okay. Even to say with our service, we work from 6AM to 10PM TMT.
Clay: Oh do you?
Donijka: Yes because different therapists would prefer to work at different times. So that means that our service is available from those times. That allows time difference.
Clay: Really. It gives you kind of a global approach and to meet the client where they are. Lovely. Tell us a little bit you and how you came to therapy. Tell us a little bit about your story.
Donijka: Story. Well I did my bachelor of science in psychology straight after school and decided that that wasn’t for me and went travelling. It was only by coincidence that I fell back into it and I fell back into it through therapy, actually. It was a therapist who suggested that maybe it might a consideration to go back and re-study and do counseling in psychotherapy. From that, I got an address and the phone number. From that I got an interview. From that I was on the court about a month later. So it was a suspense. So from doing my degree to starting my post graduate was maybe twelve years. That was a lot of things happening in the interview.
Clay: How did you begin your own practice then and how did Irish Online Counselling & Psychotherapist Service come to be?
Donijka: The other lady who is a co-founder which may Mary McHugh, we actually both trained together in Casa Bara. We graduated and tour around the world. Today, we are both doing private practice ourselves and then Mary became involved in an online suicide support system.
Clay: Hold on just a second, Donijka. We are having a little bit technical difficulty. Let me see if we can get that solved. I think we’re in a better shape now. Go right ahead. You and Mary, you broke up there just a little bit.
Donijka: So Mary and myself, we trained together in Castlebar. And after we graduated, we both pursued our own private practice. She’s in Castlebar and I’m in Roscommon, the two counties beside each other in west Ireland. Mary became involved with an online support forum for people with suicidal thoughts and ideations. She asked if I would come onboard with that. So it was a volunteering project. Very new. I was very unsure about whether it would work and whether I wanted to be involved. But then if things come your way, give it a go. So it was true that actually the both of us began to see just two was fallen through the net and just how many people were fallen through the net of traditional support. So it took off faster than the people who would say that even could possible of a margin. Within a few months, there was nearly a hundred thousand likes on the Facebook page. It was all through that. It was just the volume was incredible. They were very much trying to run and find their feet as they were running. So it showed us that there was a need for something. But moving on from that, we had been really blessed I suppose with the training we have had. It was all about boundaries. All about boundaries. All about boundaries. That kept coming back to us. That kept coming back to both of us. So when we could see that there’s a real need for an online support, but within the boundary setting that we would offer clients and face to face practice. So that’s how the idea was born. How could we have those boundaries? How could we meet clients there with us but still ask that they keep their really names? Still ask that they show up at a boundary time. Still ask that there is repeat with the same therapist all the time. Not just that they’re linking in whenever. That there is a potential to be doing real work and not holding somebody just in a place of trauma or wound.
Clay: Wow! Wonderful training. That’s kind of trial by fire. Sounds like.
Donijka: It totally was. We started. We had to Google to see was there anybody else doing it around. We kind of put the world out there and asked for therapists around. We found a few people but nothing much. There was a few people in private practice perhaps seeing people online. But there was really very little information. Not that many people were forthcoming about being a viable option. There was a lot of “Oh, I don’t know if that would work.” People were concerned around boundaries and all of the things that are genuine concerns. But we had seen there was a need. So because we had seen there was a need, we felt that we had a responsibility to do something about that. Once we had seen it, we couldn’t unsee it.
Clay: Yeah.
Donijka: So there. It was for us to take the risk to say we’re going to give it a go. We’re going to do the best that we can. We found insurance. And then from then we felt that we had some security in that. And then it was a case of setting it up and all the time doing it in the same way that we would do in private practice.
Clay: Fascinating. So how long ago was that that you started this?
Donijka: July 2011.
Clay: So you’re going on about four and half, five years of doing this. Obviously successful.
Donijka: Yes! Build it and they will come.
Clay: Build it and they will come. Absolutely. You got a total of seven therapists including the two of you. So it’s a group practice online. But you do chat, you phone, you do video connection like Skype. Do you also do face to face?
Donijka: No. That would be a separate practice. I think most of the therapists actually they would all have their face to face.
Clay: This is 100% technologically driven online counseling.
Donijka: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Clay: I am always fascinated that the need is there and we’ve looked at the show of the statistics of people of who need mental healthcare and their inability to get it. I’ve talked some therapists in the UK and of course they have their national health service. What is the need? How do people in Ireland access mental healthcare traditionally? What is the need around that?
Donijka: It would predominantly be GP referrals if you’re having face to face. So there is the HIC, which we are healthcare system and you will be put on a waiting list if there are financial needs or anything like that. But there are waiting lists. So the majority of people would probably be going to a private system or face to face counseling.
Clay: Is there a large private system in Ireland?
Donijka: Yes! There would seem to be certainly there is a lot of training, an increase of training courses and things like that. So there just seem to be a base of therapists.
Clay: Is this becoming a more and more acceptable to access mental healthcare online?
Donijka: Yes. I think so. I mean we have to get to the stage of more accessible to access mental healthcare stuff. We’re still a big issue here and it would still be a big issue in rural Ireland. So yes in Dublin, Galway, it is okay. Maybe there is the anonymity of going to a building and having the placard on the door saying the whatever counselling center, knocking and going in. In a small rural village, maybe not so much. We’re not quite there yet. Definitely getting there. People are definitely talking about it more. We’ve had celebrities and sports people come out and speak very openly about it. So it is becoming a more acceptable topic of conversation. I don’t know that people have necessarily got that to find that it’s about them and they’re actually going for the appointment. So there’ll be some issues around that. Again, online counseling then actually allows you to bridge that gap. So, while it’s okay to be talking about it, the idea is there. Not sure about doing the next step and knocking at door or staying at home late.
Clay: I think it was you that was talking earlier of sometimes a client progresses through the different stages. They may start with chat so there’s no video. And then they’ll progress to, okay will go to audio. Tell us a little bit about that how you’re seeing clients kind of warm up to the idea of connecting online.
Donijka: I suppose when we’re talking about any kind of therapy, it is all about connection. It is all about relationship. So that’s what we’re starting. We are starting with understanding that there is a relationship being sought because this person is coming to therapy at whatever level they’re coming to it. So if somebody comes in an instant chat, we’re discussing that. We’re wondering about it. We’re wondering how it is for them to becoming in an instant chat, what it was that made them choose instant chat. So it opens a door, it’s all named and that’s fine. As actions go on and the relationship deepens and trust is developing, then maybe it’s about wondering again. Just checking in. We have been in contact now for a while and I’m wondering about where we are in this, how it would be to see or be seen. So that option is there. Very optimistic. They may want to see the therapist and then may not be ready to be seen just yet. So where we see options for some people maybe they will be okay with voice. Maybe our phone could be put on and there will be talk. For other people, maybe it can do that. It’s being heard. It’s their voice that the struggle is with. But maybe they would really like to be seen by the therapist or they would like to see the therapist’s response when their story is being read out when they are really sharing deep stuff and taking the risk to trust. So therefore the video comes out on the therapists’ side first and we start and see how that is. If it’s not okay and it would lose right down again. Even that it’s checking in all the time. Making sure that the client is empowered the whole time and that is okay to say, “No actually that wasn’t okay for me and I have to go back.” But we’ve done that so maybe we could come up again.
Clay: Wow! That’s beautiful that you have different levels of connection and that is client driven so that they’re kind of in charge the entire way of how they’re going to connect.
Donijka: Absolutely. And it is definitely client driven. But in that, it is also named. So whether we’re doing a review with the client or whatever, you may have a client who’s been in six months and been an instant chat, it may be that they just don’t have the privacy. It maybe that this is the only space I can get and then my office at lunch time I can’t do the talking or the video that it is not practical. So it isn’t about I’m anxious about being seen or being heard, this is all I can do for now. So long it’s named, it keeps it real.
Clay: So what kind of specialties do you and your group practitioners provide? Wait, wait, wait. Go back one more time. We have a little bit of glitch. Go ahead.
Donijka: So it would be broad spectrum, it would be the usual things. We would have addiction and lust and illness and all of those things. Certainly an increase in porn addiction is coming more on the scene. Again, because anything sex related, that can be a struggle with saying it. So again, there’s this space to able to bridge the gap there. So even if it’s in that, even it is a video, one like this and we get stuck, the client really wants to say something and just can’t, the words won’t come out. Okay. So I hear that you want to say something and I can see that there’s a struggle. I wonder how it would be for you to… And then as it comes. So the facility is there.
Clay: Right. Right. So, in the United States we have, I think it’s fascinating to learn from different cultures and countries about their accreditation and training. Here in the United States we have a concept of licensure that is state approved. What are the requirements in Ireland in order to do psychotherapy, is it very similar to Great Britain, where they have the British Association of Counselling & Psychotherapy I think. And there’s accredited body. You have to have a certain level of training. What’s that like in Ireland?
Donijka: We would have the same. We would have accrediting bodies. It is not a regulated industry yet. It’s kind of in the process of that. So in theory, anybody could settle preserve counselor. So Ireland is just in the process of working through that.
Clay: I see. But I get a lot of questions if I get contact with someone from Ireland, a citizen of this country and they want to do psychotherapy with me and I live in California, am I breaking Irish law or regulations to do that, and you’re saying, no there are no regulations currently in Ireland.
Donijka: It’s in the process of changing it in the moment. So there will be regulations and predominantly. My experience would be that a lot of force would be very good so most therapists would either be in it, in a pre-accredited status or fully accredited status. So therefore, they are adhering to their rules and regulations which will be transferrable when regulation comes in.
Clay: I see. Great. So you were saying that you work globally with clients all over the world. Obviously rural sections of the country there is a great need for privacy and etcetera. Take me back to the conversation you and I had about a lot of people after the great recession in Ireland left to go work in other areas and there’s a lot of people who left Ireland.
Donijka: That’s all been our greatest exports is people.
Clay: Most of my family came from Ireland in like the 1600 and 1700. So, tell me about that and their need for support in counseling now that they’ve left.
Donijka: So there was a recession. While people would have been going to America on the J1 visas, would have been going to their gap year, would have been going to Australia and the traditional places, perhaps, it would have been more choice driven, more exploration, more adventure. Whereas when this happened, there was really nothing. It was so abrupt. It was so blunt. It was such an enormous crash. Places that had never had anything had everything and gone again. It was insane. It was like nothing our generation experienced before. It was really shocking. Immigration and transfer, there isn’t a family in Ireland who hasn’t been affected. There was no place that was unaffected.
Clay: You’re saying most people in the country were affected by people leaving.
Donijka: Most definitely. I would say most families would have, if not immediately family, then extended family who have to leave. I really felt that it was that strong that they really felt that they had to leave that there was nothing here for them. And then you have everything that comes with that. You have the generation gap. You have things like sports cloves and that not been able to form a team. That was such a big part of rural community in particular. There was nobody there. Even to think about that. There were not the young men and women to make up football teams. Therefore, what happens to that community? There was a loss of the generation. It was really significant. I think people go there is a big farewell at the airport. There is all about this is what we’re going to do. We are going to think that we can do this, we can beat this. And then they leave to wherever they’re going particularly if they were part building trade. But where did they go. In Saudi Arabia, in Dubai, any of those places. Really different approach. How was it to be there? Not necessarily even just going on abroad. Lots of married people, one of the couple have stayed at home and raise the family and the other has to go abroad to work because there’s just even work here. So then you’ll have people living in far away from home, far away from loved ones in a completely different culture that they were not probably prepared for because it was so reactive.
Clay: And quick. It happened very quickly.
Donijka: And then who do I speak to? There is a thing of not wanting to worry the mommy or there is a thing of not wanting to perhaps show that you haven’t made it or that terrible sense of shame and failing that the Irish, I think, do particularly well. Who would talk to? Very often people have had a look and perhaps trying to do face to face counseling where they’re at. Because of the cultural differences or language barriers, it hasn’t been a variable option for them. So then what happens? Do we just abandon people at the airport? No we don’t.
Clay: No we don’t. Beautiful. So that really kind of helps with the idea of a global practice and that you working with the Irish all over the world and then non Irish as well. Tell me a little bit about running a group practice. Let’s talk on the business end of it. Because I’ve talked to a few therapists of they want to expand their practice, financially it is a viable to have more people in there. Certainly you’ve talked about the need, that’s there. So what was like for you to grow and bring people on board for an online group practice?
Donijka: A bit like what we have been talking about the acceptability of mental health services, There was a bit of the acceptability about expanding. We thought about it, the theory of it. The idea of maybe sharing the baby. Oh my God this just got real. The reluctance. It was just in theory for a little while. And then the realization that we needed to be able to provide this service and the reality was with our other commitment, there was going to be gaps in it. So therefore we needed to bring somebody in. So initially, it was somebody that I had trained with that I approached to see if they would be interested because I knew her background. That went really well. That went really, really well. We could see that as soon as she was there, she had our session times available, the clients. To watch somebody needed when they were coming from traditional face to face counseling. Somebody who haven’t had necessarily the same back-end. So we were training her in as we were going. It’s for us to learn what she needed.
Clay: What she needed, trying to figure out what she needed as well?
Donijka: Yeah. Yeah, sure. Because it’s very new. She hadn’t what we had. She was just coming in straight.
Clay: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you created kind of an institutional knowledge and you can pass this along to new people that you bring in. Was it there was a need then you bring in one person and then that kind of person gets filled up and so that’s the indication that it’s time to bring someone else in?
Donijka: A little bit. But also we kind of felt now is the time and we have been talking about for long enough. They have a wonderful expression in the west. She’s working half the pot.
Clay: Yes! Let’s do it. I think we talk about our clients and have these dreams and they talk and talk and talk, and there is time for action. What I hear from you is that you took educated action. You saw the market, you saw the need. You saw the viability. You started small in bringing people on board. But then you ran with it.
Donijka: Also, as time has gone on, we’ve also seen that it has become more popular. There was also the awareness which perhaps was the biggest shove for us was that if we don’t do it, somebody else is going to do it. We have just been putting in all this work all this years. Are we going to let somebody overtake us because we’re not brave enough to put up the product and say, “No, really we can do it.” So we have to have a good strong talk with ourselves, physician, heal thy self. And be prepared to put it there. So we decided what we would do is we would do an online counseling course. So we did a workshop for a day. We have had therapist contact us over the years expressing an interest of wanting to get involved. So we just put it out there to people we would be doing training and it was also good for us to see just what we have learned and to, Oh my goodness. Actually over the last few years, we have really learned a lot. The nuances of others. Using your other senses when you’re in a session looking at somebody all the time. All of the things. We have really learned a lot. To be able to help people to make that transition is in our interest because then we service the clients and it would be interest other people who were wanting to take this step.
Clay: Oh! That’s brilliant. So you did an online course. That’s how you kind of started your expansion. That’s brilliant. I see. Now, I’m curious. What are some of the top tips and things you realized that you have learned about online counseling that you pass along?
Donijka: But some of them was around the senses. So whether it is that you want have your eyes full, it’s so easy to become distracted. Particularly the most challenging one is actually the instant chat. So when you’re on a video call with somebody like we are now, we can see each other, we’re responding to each other, so it’s easier to stay focused. If you private screen, then you’re watching the little symbol that says that something’s writing and they could be writing for three, four, five minutes. Okay, so still keep your focus. That’s why you have to your supervisor on your shoulder. You have to stay focused. What goes on for the therapist whether it’s anxiety, whether it’s distraction, whether it’s whatever. It asks an awful lot more.
Clay: I thought about that too that to some degree online counseling is a bit harder that face to face is… because we started that way perhaps and it’s the traditional model. It’s easier to stay connected with someone who is in the room. Even with video, there is that screen that separates you. It’s a bit of a challenge I think. I’m glad that you’re adding that training level to what you’re doing. I’m also curious. What kind of technology and platforms do you use? Is it a across your practice or they kind of allowed to, your individual therapist allowed to choose what platform they’re going to use?
Donijka: Everybody uses Skype.
Clay: Everybody uses Skype.
Donijka: And then all of our therapists which have a Skype address that relates to the Irish Online Counseling & Psychotherapy Service. So it’s not their personal.
Clay: Alright good. Good, good, good. We’ve covered all sorts of stuff here. What’s it been like for you personally as a therapist to go online? Some of the people I’ve talked to said it’s been incredibly freeing for them. They can travel. They are making more money. They are reaching more cultures. Everyone does it I think for a different reason. What’s it been like for you?
Donijka: It has been all of those things. It’s also been frustrating. It had been frightening at times. You have to take a risk. We’re going against the grain. Swimming against the tide. Are we good enough? It has one all of that stuff. It has brought up all the stuff. So, it’s been a real roller coaster. That is the other part that we’d like to bring in about the training is about what we’re asking from clients, what we’re trying to do in therapy is be real. This is not without challenge.
Clay: Yes. Absolutely.
Donijka: It has given us all the challenges that anything different and that is what change asks of us. It sends us in to the unknown. That’s really where we were and we have been trying to make our own path through the unknown. So in this, I’ve been able to link up other online counselors now. It’s fantastic. Actually that has been something that expanding the business has been able to give us. Because now is not just me and Mary. Now we can have a trade and support each other. Other people are learning other things that maybe we have to think about and we can it share it. That support has been absolutely fantastic.
Clay: What was the reaction? Was there any negativity from the industry, from other Irish therapists that are maybe more traditional? Was there a pushback? Was there some negativity that you received?
Donijka: Yeah. From some therapists and some from supervisors. So some supervisors really don’t want to supervisors online clients at all. That they didn’t feel it was boundaried enough. Perhaps, didn’t know enough about it. I don’t know that there’s stuff. Therapists would “Oh I don’t know that it would be for me. How to connect?” There was fear of the unknown perhaps, and then maybe it’s just not for some people and that’s okay to but I think that’s definitely the fear of the unknown. There’s still remains fear of the unknown.
Clay: That’s what I’m getting on my end as well. There’s a lot of fear. A lot of nuance and from country to country. You mentioned Skype. That’s’ a platform where here in the US we’re not allowed to use. But I know that it is acceptable and usable in other areas of the country. So it’s just figuring it out. Being informed I think reduces a lot of that fear. So that’s kind of hoping. That’s our hope here at the podcast is to educate and kind of learn from you know how other people are doing it.
Donijka: Again it’s back again to that we have to constantly be checking them with ourselves because we are not doing something because of fear. That’s something for us to be looking at. If something isn’t for us, then that’s really different. But if we’re afraid to do it and we’re unsure about, then that’s our stuff to be looking at. We are not seeing clients the same way that people were seeing clients when therapy began. It is an evolutionary process. This is not something that we are saying that is the ideal. We are not saying we have it all. So no, what we are saying is that there is a need and we see it as our responsibility and to do the best we can in that.
Clay: Lovely. So in closing, any final thoughts or things? There are going to be therapists listening all over the world to this, so any kind of things that you want to make sure we might didn’t cover or any kind of tips that you may have and want to pass along?
Donijka: I can’t think now. Maybe just open it up. If people are listening on the right things that they are wondering about, maybe this is what it’s about. This is the next step is making a community and building a community where we can share stuff and keeping it real. Not the masks that we wear, that we put on Facebook for other things about the wonderful day that we’re having all the time. What about the not so wonderful days? What about when we were really unsure about stuff? Who are we contacting then? Are we able to knock to those days and name it? That’s when we need support and we need to be able to say each other as colleagues, “I’m not sure if I got that right. What the hell happened just there?” Because that’s how we can ensure that we remain human and also we give the best service.
Clay: Wait, wait, and wait. Back up. I lost you on that sentence. Hold on. What did you say?
Donijka: I said if we can save some people from making some mistakes, then that’s okay too.
Clay: Lovely. Yes. So, Donijka Monk from the Irish Online Counselling & Psychotherapy Service, I can’t thank you enough for coming on the show and talking about your experience that I find fascinating and courageous quite frankly and just trailblazing. Thank you. And your website is counsellingonline.ie and that’s counselling spelled with two L’s, the way non-US people spell it. Counsellingonline.ie. Donijka Monk, thank you so much for coming on.
Donijka: Thank you very much, Clay. Good talking to you.