Clay: Hello and welcome to the Online Counselling Podcast. This is Clay Cockrell and welcome to the second and I hope a very long line of podcast about online counseling and how to build a practice doing telemedicine online. Today, I was really fortunate to be able to interview Karissa Brennan who is a licensed mental health counselor and she’s working online seeing clients all over the world and she has an interesting approach. She does not only Skype and video cam, but she also works via text and IM, the Instant Messaging. It’s not something that I do in my practice but I know a lot of people do, so I think that it’s important to learn about that approach and certainly to talk with someone who has been doing it for quite a while and the ups and down, challenges and benefits of that.
I met Karissa through a mutual contact at BNI, Business Networking International, and you’re just going to have to hear a lot about that from me because I’m a huge fan. BNI is all over the world. It has chapters all over the world. Basically, you meet once a week for breakfast with a small group of entrepreneurs, business owners, people whose business relies on referrals. You only have one person per profession in each chapter. In our chapter, we have a mover, a real estate attorney, and real estate agent. We got a chiropractor. We’ve got a therapist – me. We’ve got a life coach. We’ve got life insurance person. The whole idea is that we are learning to run a business together and we are learning how to refer to one another. That led me to meeting Karissa, who was friends with, I believe, our dentist that is a member of the chapter. She is a fascinating person. Let’s just jump right in. Ladies and gentlemen, Karissa Brennan.
Welcome to the podcast about online counseling. I’m Clay Cockrell and today, I am very happy to have joined with us Karissa Brennan who is the founder of Cloud Counseling. Karissa, welcome to the show.
Karissa: Hi, Clay. Thank you.
Clay: We spoke briefly, just getting to know each other recently and I was fascinated by how you came to using some technology in your counseling practice. Tell us a little bit about your practice and your approach.
Karissa: Okay. Great. The way that I provide counseling is through primarily phone, video, instant messaging, and email like sessions. The point, the goal is to make counseling as accessible as humanly possible. When I was working full time, I recognized that the families of the severe and persistent mentally ill clients I was working with really didn’t have any support and they didn’t have any way of getting support. It wouldn’t be possible to take time off of work or to pay for childcare in order for them to get the counseling that they needed and so on the side, I started providing support to caregivers through phone and video counseling. Once I recognized that it was a really serious need, that there was such a serious need in society for more flexibility with counseling, I went ahead and got credentialed as a distance counselor just to better understand how to do it as effectively as possible and as ethically as possible.
Clay: You also kind of stumbled into this naturally seeing that there was a gap, a need out there and that that’s gradually grown into a practice for you.
Karissa: Yes. Something from my past, I had a father who was an alcoholic and about three years ago, he died from drinking and driving and might have caused a heart attack somewhere in there. After that happened, I recognized, he had gone to AA. It didn’t work. He had ADD so the idea of going to see a therapist every week in one little room to talk didn’t really seem like an option for him. I became very passionate about making therapy as accessible as possible so that people don’t avoid getting help for the things that are really going on.
Clay: Right. I found that so striking when we spoke earlier is this passion you have to make it as accessible as possible and convenient as possible, and that therapy does not have to come in a certain package. It doesn’t have to look a certain way because it’s not always going to serve the person in need.
Karissa: Absolutely. You have to meet them where they are at and if that is on their couch then let’s have a phone session or a video session. You can be in your pajamas. You can have your pet on your lap while you’re talking about some of these things that you’ve been thinking about but have had trouble kind of finding a space to explore them.
Clay: How long have you been doing this approach?
Karissa: I’ve been doing distance counseling for 1.5 years.
Clay: Have you found it to be successful for you?
Karissa: I found it to be extremely successful, I think, because it does truly fit a need in society. I think that many people, people with disabilities such as paralysis, people with responsibilities that they can’t get out of such as children or caring for maybe a veteran or a parent, maybe being in an abusive relationship, exploring gender identity, that’s just to name a few of some of the issues that I’ve helped people work through and it kind of lends itself to how Freud intended psychoanalysis to be. It’s not about the face to face. He sat behind the couch so it kind of gives the person a little bit more space to not be worried about the reaction or to not be impacted by any type of communication that I might exhibit in terms of verbal and nonverbal.
Clay: So you’re saying that in some aspects, this is actually even more effective than face to face counseling?
Karissa: I wouldn’t say that it’s more effective, but if it’s done correctly, I think it can be as effective. Going back to something you said earlier, therapy doesn’t have to be one certain way. For certain people, in-person therapy is really going to be what they need. They need to be seen. They need boundaries or maybe, they just want to be in a space with someone, a physical space where they feel safe. I don’t want to say that online therapy is more effective than in-person therapy, but I will say that if done in a sensitive way, it can be as effective and that is something that is backed up with research.
Clay: Yes. I wonder if you could speak to just your personal experience as a therapist working in distance counseling. How has that been for you personally and professionally, maybe talking about the flexibility or how it has fed you as a human being in this profession?
Karissa: Professionally, because it is somewhat of a new way of providing therapy, I found it to be so exciting. I get to learn all these different ways of getting to people who otherwise might not get help. Instant Messaging, for example, for some of the younger population like 20s, 30s, early 40s, they feel pretty comfortable with the idea of Instant Messaging.
Clay: It’s just how they communicate.
Karissa: Right. To be able to use a secure platform to instant message with clients to me is so, I mean, interesting. It’s exciting. It’s real time and it’s my chosen profession. I don’t want to say that therapy is fun for me because what my clients are going through is always something that’s dear to my heart, but learning about all of this is very fun.
Clay: I want to talk a little bit more on the logistics of the secure platforms that you’re using, but as a business owner, as an entrepreneur, I think that there are a lot of people listening that are thinking about going into online counseling or they have a small portion of their practice that is online and thinking about expanding that. What’s that been like for you with flexibility or travel? How can you speak on that a bit?
Karissa: Well, that’s something that some of my friends have come to me about because they initially wanted to do more of the traditional therapy and then things come up like you have a baby or you want to move back home to wherever that might be. So then they will come to me and say, “Well, you say you’ve been doing this online counseling stuff. How can I get into it?” Usually, people will think that “I need to do this and that” and “I’ve got to learn how to do this and it’s going to be really difficult.” There are some things to learn, of course, but really if you know that helping people is what you want to do then finding any effective way to provide it is something that I’m willing to help you with. I love working with my friends or other colleagues who are interested in learning about what types of platforms are secure and where should I put my lights so that in a video session, I don’t look kind of two dimensional or like a cartoon.
Clay: There is a bit of logistics to be learned, isn’t there, and I guess allowing yourself to get it wrong at the beginning as you stumble through.
Karissa: Oh, yes. My first session, actually, my laptop decided to restart. My biggest fear, but I saw that as, okay, let’s breathe. This is a chance to use what you learned in the distance counselor training because they talk about that because stuff is going to happen.
Clay: Where did you get your credentialing for distance counseling?
Karissa: There are three credentialing bodies that are recognized by the National Credentialing Agency. If you take a course through one of the three agencies then you can become nationally accredited or credentialed as a distance counselor. I think I did my training at the Institute for Telemental Health.
Clay: Okay, the Institute for Telemental Health.
Karissa: Yes.
Clay: Alright. I’ll do a little bit of research on what the others are and I’ll put those in the show notes.
Karissa: I have that information. I can give it to you. I don’t know them off the top of my head but I have them.
Clay: We’ll put that together then. What was the process like for you? Was it all I’m serving online to go through to a certain course?
Karissa: Yes. It’s an online course. There is a basic course that’s about 15 hours and then there’s more advanced course and you take the classes online. There’s a test at the end of every section then once you finish the final section, you can submit that paperwork into the National Credentialing Agency and then you will receive the credential and you can put the letters after your name.
Clay: You feel like it was beneficial?
Karissa: Oh yes. Not only in what I learned but knowing that I completed a training that specifically focuses on distance counseling, it really built up my confidence in the ability to do this work so that I could talk to people who were maybe not so sure about it and explain to them how it could work.
Clay: Are you finding yourself as kind of a mentor to people who are coming to you saying, “I want to maybe try this,” and you’re taking them through the steps?
Karissa: Yes and something that I’m also looking at is actually franchising and coming out with more Cloud Counseling locations because really, the laws are kind of influx just like when we started driving cars going from riding horses. All of a sudden, we had to pave the roads and make seatbelts laws, and then not everybody is a good driver. We need driver’s licenses and that’s kind of what we’re doing with online therapy. We’re not quite sure if I live in New York but I’m licensed in Michigan and my client is in Michigan. Can I do that or what? The laws are kind of vague right now. What I would love to have is a Cloud counselor in each state.
Clay: Oh yeah. A client comes in there in Tennessee. You go, “Well, here’s our Tennessee provider who is licensed in Tennessee.”
Karissa: Correct.
Clay: Yeah. That’s interesting. I’ve heard of people trying to go through the process of reciprocity to get licensed in all 50 states. I’ve yet to hear of anyone who has actually done it because first of all, it’s incredibly expensive, but you’ve got your degree. You’ve got license in one state. It’s just so many hoops to jump through and license through all the others. I think that that’s a fascinating approach is to kind of have someone that you’ve trained that you trust and this is our person for whatever state.
Karissa: And that would be a lot of clients for me to try to take on. If I try to take on even three states, that would be hard. I think it would be better to have more counselors in more states just being able to provide better care.
Clay: Tell us a little bit about your marketing approach. How do you get the word out about you?
Karissa: Well, I do a lot of networking. I am an active member in a BNI Chapter in Manhattan. It’s one of the largest, Chapter 62.
Clay: Oh yes, Chapter 62, the big one.
Karissa: Yes. I love being a part of that. I get so much support with what kind of business card should I have. When I went to hand my business card to a ballroom dance instructor who’s my mentor and she looked at it like, “What? This should be shaped like a cloud.” I had no response other than, “You’re right.” I went home and I found a website and I was able to make cloud-shaped business cards. Every time I hand out my business cards, everybody loves them. I don’t know that I would have thought of that. Learning how to talk about my business, that’s something I’ve learned from presenting at BNI and I’m also a part of two other groups that are a little bit more wellness and fitness oriented, so I’m able to collaborate with other practitioners and that’s one way to get the word out.
Clay: For those of you listening, you’ve probably heard, I’ve talked about BNI on this podcast before. It stands for Business Networking International. There are chapters all over the world, but basically, it’s a concept where a group of people, generally small business owners, entrepreneurs, private practitioners, they get together once a week for breakfast, typically it’s for breakfast, and the idea is that you’re learning from one another and you’re referring to each other. You have an attorney, a mover, we’ve got people who sell life insurance, and you have one representative for every field. You only have one realtor, one therapist, and one physical trainer. Competition is not there. It’s a great organization to learn how to network and to expand your referral base.
Karissa: Absolutely.
Clay: That’s a little bit about BNI. I want to be cognizant of your time and this is incredible gift that you’re sharing your story, but tell us a little bit about how we, any of the listeners if they want to follow up with you or even to refer to you, how do we get in touch?
Karissa: Well, I have a profile on Psychology Today which many people find me through.
Clay: That’s another little tip then. You found Psychology Today listing service to be quite helpful.
Karissa: Oh yes, extremely helpful. I think when you put time into your profile to really explain in the client’s potential words what your goal is and what you really want to provide people, I think people hear that and one thing that I’ve helped other practitioners with is how to develop their Psychology Today profile so that when people read it, they feel something. Oftentimes, therapists will say, “I am a CDT Worker. Why? Because it works. It’s proven.” That’s exciting, but it doesn’t really speak to a client. A client might be saying, “Yeah, but I feel alone and I feel misunderstood. I feel bad about feeling bad and I want to feel better.”
Clay: A person that just happens to stumble upon your listing and I think that more and more people are doing that.
Karissa: Yeah.
Clay: Good. What are some other ways that we can, maybe a website address?
Karissa: Yes. Another way to get in contact with me is through my website which is cloud-counseling.com and there are a couple of different areas where you can send me a message directly through the website and that will get securely back to me. You can even go on the website and after kind of reading through some of what I offer, if you’re ready to book a free phone consultation, there’s a button that says ‘Book Now’ and you can go ahead and book a free phone consultation. There’s a short questionnaire right after you click the day and time that works for you and that’s where you can really give me the meat and potatoes of what your whole thing to get out of are worked together.
Clay: You’ve got quite a robust website that has a bit of the bells and whistles booking and etc.
Karissa: Yes. I am using an online booking form called You Can Book Me. It’s free of charge. It’s customizable. Again, it’s fun. I enjoy designing these kinds of side platforms that I use for my site. The scheduling, yes, and to help other people learn how to use them because it’s so exciting. You don’t have to pay and that means that you can charge less. Absolutely.
Clay: Karissa, thank you so much for spending time with us. There’s a lot of good information you’ve been able to provide and I’m going to put some of these links into the show notes. Be sure to check that out. For our listeners, if you want to learn more about this, contact us through the onlinecounselling.com website and we want to hear from you. Thank you very much.
Karissa: Alright, thank you.